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Vuelta a España 2017 - Week 2
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| matt17br |
Posted on 10-09-2017 21:12
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Directeur Sportif
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Ey matt, you dislike me to the point where theres no point in engaging in any kind of discussion with you. Aint enjoyable when all you do is replying with that aggressive style of yours to whatever I say. You do really hate me, don't you? So lets not just go down that road.
But it still surprises me you are able to deduct from my post that I irrationally hate sprinters. I guess we all see what we want to sometimes.
I don't hate you and I don't have discussions with you as often as you think I do, but I guess you'd rather just reply in this kind of way rather than have a constructive discusion 
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| matt17br |
Posted on 10-09-2017 21:16
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One thing: Trentin and Villella were OTL yesterday, so they should have been kicked out of the race.
Lol what kind of time limit is <25 minutes in a stage with rain, 2 hard climbs and the hardest climb in modern cycling? I generally would agree with you, but losing 25 mins for Villella and 26 for Trentin is absolutely acceptable and totally understandable. No discussion everyone that finished such an epic stage shouldn't have been kicked out, it was no slacking gruppetto kind of case like it happens all too often, just riders struggling or at least intelligently not going all out and just trying to finish the stage...
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| Forever the Best |
Posted on 10-09-2017 21:21
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matt17br wrote:
One thing: Trentin and Villella were OTL yesterday, so they should have been kicked out of the race.
Lol what kind of time limit is <25 minutes in a stage with rain, 2 hard climbs and the hardest climb in modern cycling? I generally would agree with you, but losing 25 mins for Villella and 26 for Trentin is absolutely acceptable and totally understandable. No discussion everyone that finished such an epic stage shouldn't have been kicked out, it was no slacking gruppetto kind of case like it happens all too often, just riders struggling or at least intelligently not going all out and just trying to finish the stage... I disagree.
27 kms for a 119 km mountain stages with 3 big climbs at the end (the 3 big climbs took 88 minutes) is enough.
The user formerly known as 'The Schleck Fan'
Gracias Alberto.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 10-09-2017 21:23
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World Champion
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Riis123 wrote:
The jerseys are part of the charm with the Vuelta. Who even has a classification combinada? No one besides the Vuelta and thats great. There's no point in making the jerseys equal in the different races, as I said, part of the charm.
The classification punto is a jersey for the most consistent rider and again, no need to guarantee a sprinter to win it like the Tour does. Trentin was close to winning it with 3-4 sprinter stages, in a year with 5-7 stages it obviously becomes a different ballgame. Everyone has a chance as long as your are good enough.
This...on both things i cant agree more. Also it is not fault of Froome that there are not more consistent riders that fight for green (points!!!) jersey in Vuelta field. Froome was most consistent and best points scoring rider through 21 stages, why he would give someone the jersey for free ffs.
And i dont get why thers is a need for every GT having same set of jerseys, what is bad on diversity?
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| Riis123 |
Posted on 10-09-2017 21:24
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5075
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matt17br wrote:
I don't hate you and I don't have discussions with you as often as you think I do, but I guess you'd rather just reply in this kind of way rather than have a constructive discusion
No I love to discuss cycling, but I don't see a point joining one with person (an administrator) who I feel almost assault me and my opinions at any given opportunity. Its not really pleasant.
If Froome winning the points jersey gets you this frustrated, well, I dno. Personally I don't really care for those secondary jerseys. I thought it was extremely unnecessary from Froome to contest it, but thats racing and he is in his right to do that. You can argue all you want for Trentin and why he should have won it, but had they just included one more sprint stage (which they usually have, many times around 6-7) he would have won rather easily. Fact is they didn't include many flat stages and there's that - then you sometimes get a winner like this which really isn't the end of the world, in the Vuelta its often an afterthought. So I don't really think the point system is flawed, but I wouldn't mind them awarding a bit more points for a flat stages altho Im not in favour of it as I like a pure points jersey (thats the original idea behind the jersey, to award the most consistent rider) rather than a sprinter jersey. |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 10-09-2017 21:25
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No, it's not enough and if you applied your logic to most other mountain stages of similar calibre you'd see 50 riders per stage retire. The OTL thingy hasn't been applied when it was really obvious, why should it have been applied yesterday? Are you even sure that the time limit was so low...?
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 10-09-2017 21:26
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
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Forever the Best wrote:
matt17br wrote:
One thing: Trentin and Villella were OTL yesterday, so they should have been kicked out of the race.
Lol what kind of time limit is <25 minutes in a stage with rain, 2 hard climbs and the hardest climb in modern cycling? I generally would agree with you, but losing 25 mins for Villella and 26 for Trentin is absolutely acceptable and totally understandable. No discussion everyone that finished such an epic stage shouldn't have been kicked out, it was no slacking gruppetto kind of case like it happens all too often, just riders struggling or at least intelligently not going all out and just trying to finish the stage... I disagree.
27 kms for a 119 km mountain stages with 3 big climbs at the end (the 3 big climbs took 88 minutes) is enough.
And i have to agree here too, i hate when there are rules which are not applied...anybody who misses time limit know before the stage, should be kicked out. Who cares that you save your ass for the next stage?
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| Riis123 |
Posted on 10-09-2017 21:28
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5075
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Forever the Best wrote:
matt17br wrote:
One thing: Trentin and Villella were OTL yesterday, so they should have been kicked out of the race.
Lol what kind of time limit is <25 minutes in a stage with rain, 2 hard climbs and the hardest climb in modern cycling? I generally would agree with you, but losing 25 mins for Villella and 26 for Trentin is absolutely acceptable and totally understandable. No discussion everyone that finished such an epic stage shouldn't have been kicked out, it was no slacking gruppetto kind of case like it happens all too often, just riders struggling or at least intelligently not going all out and just trying to finish the stage... I disagree.
27 kms for a 119 km mountain stages with 3 big climbs at the end (the 3 big climbs took 88 minutes) is enough.
Yeah its laughable how they time and time again ignore the rule, it was most blatant last year to Formigal. If you aren't gonna enforce it why not just scrap it? |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 10-09-2017 21:29
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Directeur Sportif
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No I love to discuss cycling, but I don't see a point joining one with person (an administrator) who I feel almost assault me and my opinions at any given opportunity. Its not really pleasant.
I don't see how me being an administrator has any effect on our discussions. If I want to call out someone I'll do it regardless of my position and you've had this argument with TMM already. Don't act like a victim, I don't assault anyone.
If Froome winning the points jersey gets you this frustrated, well, I dno.
I am not frustrated. I even said 'good on Froome' earlier and critiqued QuickStep. I'm frustrated about the principle of the green jersey.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 10-09-2017 21:29
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
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matt17br wrote:
No, it's not enough and if you applied your logic to most other mountain stages of similar calibre you'd see 50 riders per stage retire. The OTL thingy hasn't been applied when it was really obvious, why should it have been applied yesterday? Are you even sure that the time limit was so low...?
Actually it was usually not applied when Cavendish was not able to get his ass over the mountains of France (in times whe the car was not helping him)
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| matt17br |
Posted on 10-09-2017 21:32
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
matt17br wrote:
No, it's not enough and if you applied your logic to most other mountain stages of similar calibre you'd see 50 riders per stage retire. The OTL thingy hasn't been applied when it was really obvious, why should it have been applied yesterday? Are you even sure that the time limit was so low...?
Actually it was usually not applied when Cavendish was not able to get his ass over the mountains of France (in times whe the car was not helping him)
There's a difference between losing 25 minutes in a stage culminating up Angliru and losing 45 to 1 hour in easier mountain ones. I don't see why you guys can't grasp that. The jury is there for a reason, and they've made the right decision assuming the OTL was even broken, cause I couldn't find any reference about that.
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| Riis123 |
Posted on 10-09-2017 21:35
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5075
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matt17br wrote:
No I love to discuss cycling, but I don't see a point joining one with person (an administrator) who I feel almost assault me and my opinions at any given opportunity. Its not really pleasant.
I don't see how me being an administrator has any effect on our discussions. If I want to call out someone I'll do it regardless of my position and you've had this argument with TMM already. Don't act like a victim, I don't assault anyone.
If Froome winning the points jersey gets you this frustrated, well, I dno.
I am not frustrated. I even said 'good on Froome' earlier and critiqued QuickStep. I'm frustrated about the principle of the green jersey.
The principle of not differentiating the point system for flatter stages or that the Vuelta this year only having 4 of those? The latter I can't see no problem with at all, since all that is doing is making the race a better watch, the former, well, thats heavily depends on how you view the green jersey - sprinters jersey or a jersey for consistency as originally intended (best examplified by Felline winning last year). |
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| Guido Mukk |
Posted on 11-09-2017 06:38
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15830
Joined: 08-02-2007
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
matt17br wrote:
No, it's not enough and if you applied your logic to most other mountain stages of similar calibre you'd see 50 riders per stage retire. The OTL thingy hasn't been applied when it was really obvious, why should it have been applied yesterday? Are you even sure that the time limit was so low...?
Actually it was usually not applied when Cavendish was not able to get his ass over the mountains of France (in times whe the car was not helping him)
What a bullshit. |
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| Guido Mukk |
Posted on 11-09-2017 06:41
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15830
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And mr Riis. Grand tour without top sprinters is not real gt it sucks.
Just keep on watching classics if you prefer just hilly sprinters winning |
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 11-09-2017 15:37
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
Joined: 21-10-2007
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No, Armstrong or Sagan for me...
Froome, Contador, Cancellara, Valverde and Ullrich is high on the list! |
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| Shonak |
Posted on 17-09-2017 14:16
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15615
Joined: 16-07-2013
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Watched the stage again today, love the guy on the left. 
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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