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[PT/PCT/CT] Team Goals and Calendar 2017
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| SotD |
Posted on 25-08-2017 08:31
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World Champion
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Something I think you need to consider for next season is to create clashing TT races for the Pro Tour.
As it is right now, there are just one race where TT'ers clash, and that is two similar looking races: Tour de Suisse and Criterium du Dauphine. There are no possibilities to match up and use the tactical aspect of the game elsewhere. Not even when picking your PTHC bands. There's always the clashing of a GT, but to be honest most top level TT'ers won't attend a race like the Giro with only a 6km prologue, which can be won by 15 different riders, and then a late mountain TT. Neither will they attend the Vuelta a España with the first individual TT taking place in the 3rd week, knowing that it is for the GT favorites more often than not.
Having a 83 top level TT'er I don't mind really, as I will be a race favorite in all the races Coppel attends, but IMO you are taking out the incitament of buying strong riders like Kiril Yatsevich, Jesse Sergent, Tony Martin etc. for the PT simply because you can never expect them to finish higher than 10th in a PT TT, because all the direct competitors are there. Everytime. And if we include the prologue specialists aswell, they can't go for those races either as they would then look at placements around 15th instead.
The same problem occurs for cobblers I think. There are a total of 8 possible races including cobbles in one way or another for Pro Tour teams. Neither are clashing.
I think it would be a good thing to look at this for next season, especially with a possibility of clashing some races with PTHC level, as it would mean that some could pick one race or the other, instead of always competing against Bewley, GVA, Vanspeybrouck and Burghardt. Especially for those teams with riders in the subtop, I feel there is currently a very uneven advantage for those having a top top rider in those two categories.
There are plenty of races clashing for MO, HI and SPR riders hence making it possible to outsmart the better teams with cunning planning. Why not include the other two categories aswell? I know it's the same for everyone, but then again it's not. The incitament of selling Coppel, Bewley, GVA, Zmorka etc. is extremely little as they would be likely to get top 3 in most races they attend while having the easiest time in the world planning.
Having a rider like Simon Spilak I should have an easy time planning aswell, but I'm not as there are so many clashing races where I have to consider possibilities, like who will my opponents be, where else could I get a weaker competition, what team should I put to have a fighting chance etc., while for the cobbles and the timetrials I already know who I'm going to fight, and I don't really have any other option. Well yeah, I could go for the TTT's, but having a top level ITT rider that's somewhat of a ridicule.
You are doing a massive and greatly appreciated job behind the scenes! Maybe this is something to consider for next season.
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| SotD |
Posted on 25-08-2017 08:35
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World Champion
Posts: 12188
Joined: 29-11-2006
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Examples of an easy fix:
- Strada Appia and Omloop Het Nieuwsblad same date.
- Rheden GP starting the 20th, not the 24th.
- Volta a Portugal starting the 7th, not the 10th (Moving the TT to stage 5).
- Praha-Karlovy Vary-Praha starting the 22nd, not the 26th.
- Include ITT in both Paris-Nice and Tirreno-Adriatico.
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| the_hoyle |
Posted on 25-08-2017 08:44
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7651
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Some nice ideas SotD - I agree that seeing the same big names going to the same races made things a little bit too predictable last season
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Posted on 22-11-2024 20:27
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| the_hoyle |
Posted on 25-08-2017 08:44
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7651
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Some nice ideas SotD - I agree that seeing the same big names going to the same races made things a little bit too predictable last season
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| SotD |
Posted on 25-08-2017 09:39
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World Champion
Posts: 12188
Joined: 29-11-2006
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alexkr00 wrote:
SotD wrote:
Alright. I have never gotten my 1st pick in this game, hence my hesitance :-)
Weren't the teams with lower rankings in the previous season favored when picking the HC races in previous seasons? Maybe that's why you never got your 1st pick.
I just wanted someone else saying this 
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| SotD |
Posted on 25-08-2017 09:40
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World Champion
Posts: 12188
Joined: 29-11-2006
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cio93 wrote:
alexkr00 wrote:
SotD wrote:
Alright. I have never gotten my 1st pick in this game, hence my hesitance :-)
Weren't the teams with lower rankings in the previous season favored when picking the HC races in previous seasons? Maybe that's why you never got your 1st pick.
He has an awful lot to complain about for winning this thing with a Ponzi-sized lead last season. 
Hey, it's not easy being that superior - This season will be different, I promise. I won't win this one 
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 25-08-2017 10:07
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World Champion
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Not easy for sure, but you somehow always manage that.
*clap* *clap*
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| SotD |
Posted on 25-08-2017 10:23
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World Champion
Posts: 12188
Joined: 29-11-2006
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I have several plans - Then it's just whether or not it will be Plan A or Plan Z that I end up with - Well, definately not Plan A anyways
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| jph27 |
Posted on 25-08-2017 10:37
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Team Leader
Posts: 7339
Joined: 20-03-2010
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SotD wrote:
alexkr00 wrote:
SotD wrote:
Alright. I have never gotten my 1st pick in this game, hence my hesitance :-)
Weren't the teams with lower rankings in the previous season favored when picking the HC races in previous seasons? Maybe that's why you never got your 1st pick.
I just wanted someone else saying this
I should really have clarified I was referring to in PCT - obviously the PT system for HC was a bit different with PT teams just being fillers |
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| roturn |
Posted on 25-08-2017 11:02
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Team Manager
Posts: 22246
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I will read it more carefully later, SotD.
But as an example.
There are three bands in PTHC with a cobbled race. You only ride 2. So basically some kind of "clash" there already as not all 3 classics can face the same startlist.
Also PT and PTHC must be mixed a bit this year. With "reduced" PT schedule clashes became more and more difficult. Hence some clashes are between PT and PTHC. This way maybe leading to choosing a different PTHC band of course or if it`s the perfect band having clashing races then.
Regarding cobblers I think it`s difficult. Most races are classics there and hence more difficult to clash as with stage races, which includes a lot more races including GTs.
Obviously we could add more clashes in future. Would need to consider this closely but as said, I will have to take a better look later on and we can surely find a time to discuss this more in detail. |
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| roturn |
Posted on 25-08-2017 11:06
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Team Manager
Posts: 22246
Joined: 24-11-2007
PCM$: 3900.00
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SotD wrote:
Examples of an easy fix:
- Strada Appia and Omloop Het Nieuwsblad same date.
- Rheden GP starting the 20th, not the 24th.
- Volta a Portugal starting the 7th, not the 10th (Moving the TT to stage 5).
- Praha-Karlovy Vary-Praha starting the 22nd, not the 26th.
- Include ITT in both Paris-Nice and Tirreno-Adriatico.
Regarding this. Can`t check to 100% now.
But Rheden is part of the 3 band PTHC cobbled race, so clashing basically.
Strada and Omloop are the last 2 PT cobbled classics (next to monuments), would be weird to see those clashing.
PN and TA both have TTs. One ITT and one TTT. So basically clashing with time trialists.
Surely can discuss later on when having a bit more time about future ideas. |
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| roturn |
Posted on 25-08-2017 11:10
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Team Manager
Posts: 22246
Joined: 24-11-2007
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jph27 wrote:
SotD wrote:
alexkr00 wrote:
SotD wrote:
Alright. I have never gotten my 1st pick in this game, hence my hesitance :-)
Weren't the teams with lower rankings in the previous season favored when picking the HC races in previous seasons? Maybe that's why you never got your 1st pick.
I just wanted someone else saying this
I should really have clarified I was referring to in PCT - obviously the PT system for HC was a bit different with PT teams just being fillers
This. PT hardly had any real band system.
Last year`s HC bands were just taking the renaiming spots after PCT filled most of it.
This year it`s indeed more difficult as it`s not comparable with PCT in HC.
PCT had 30 teams for 24 spots in each band.
Now it`s 48 teams going for 24 spots in each band!
Very probable that many teams won`t get their first choice. Hence the starting deadline to give everyone time to think about it and send it in as close after the start deadline as possible making it fairer as a fast start and then someone who checks more regularly at weekends has a disadvantage and so on.
And also the bands will be tried to spread as fair as possible. Next to priority and timing also the balancing.
Someone who missed out on first pick is more likely to get 2 and 3 instead of 2 and 4 or even 3 and 4!
And also the flexibility OR goal is very nice to have now as well. Basically a good chance to take it for 2 different PTHC band races and then you can decide afterwards. |
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| Tamijo |
Posted on 25-08-2017 11:54
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Team Leader
Posts: 7406
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"Alea iacta est"
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 25-08-2017 12:15
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
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Why are PTHC and HC equal for goals, while the former is a guaranteed full race against WT teams and the latter is not always full and competing against CT teams? It would seem to me PTHC is a lot harder to get results and therefore should be worth more?
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| SotD |
Posted on 25-08-2017 12:25
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World Champion
Posts: 12188
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 2980.00
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roturn wrote:
I will read it more carefully later, SotD.
But as an example.
There are three bands in PTHC with a cobbled race. You only ride 2. So basically some kind of "clash" there already as not all 3 classics can face the same startlist.
Also PT and PTHC must be mixed a bit this year. With "reduced" PT schedule clashes became more and more difficult. Hence some clashes are between PT and PTHC. This way maybe leading to choosing a different PTHC band of course or if it`s the perfect band having clashing races then.
Regarding cobblers I think it`s difficult. Most races are classics there and hence more difficult to clash as with stage races, which includes a lot more races including GTs.
Obviously we could add more clashes in future. Would need to consider this closely but as said, I will have to take a better look later on and we can surely find a time to discuss this more in detail.
No rush. I wouldn't want you to change anything for this season anyway. It was a thought for seasons to come. Having a few of those races myself, that is very easy to plan and already knowing the opposition, I can almost write down the points before the season has started, with a +/- 15% margin. And for a freak like myself, that calculating piece is too easy, and I would tend to accelerate gains there
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| SotD |
Posted on 25-08-2017 12:29
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World Champion
Posts: 12188
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 2980.00
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roturn wrote:
SotD wrote:
Examples of an easy fix:
- Strada Appia and Omloop Het Nieuwsblad same date.
- Rheden GP starting the 20th, not the 24th.
- Volta a Portugal starting the 7th, not the 10th (Moving the TT to stage 5).
- Praha-Karlovy Vary-Praha starting the 22nd, not the 26th.
- Include ITT in both Paris-Nice and Tirreno-Adriatico.
Regarding this. Can`t check to 100% now.
But Rheden is part of the 3 band PTHC cobbled race, so clashing basically.
Strada and Omloop are the last 2 PT cobbled classics (next to monuments), would be weird to see those clashing.
PN and TA both have TTs. One ITT and one TTT. So basically clashing with time trialists.
Surely can discuss later on when having a bit more time about future ideas.
Regarding PN and TA it's not difficult to see where to strongest TT riders will go. The top 5 riders would clearly aim for the ITT and then the points are gone for the rest. The 76-80TT guys could aim for the TTT if the rest of the team is decent enough or they have a potential GC top 5 rider. But seeing Fiedler, Coppel, Zmorka, Phinney, Cornu, Vlatos etc. in the TTT is not that likely I'd say. If one race had both TT and a TTT, and the other just a TT it would be a very interesting clash imo.
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| roturn |
Posted on 25-08-2017 12:40
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Team Manager
Posts: 22246
Joined: 24-11-2007
PCM$: 3900.00
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SotD wrote:
roturn wrote:
I will read it more carefully later, SotD.
But as an example.
There are three bands in PTHC with a cobbled race. You only ride 2. So basically some kind of "clash" there already as not all 3 classics can face the same startlist.
Also PT and PTHC must be mixed a bit this year. With "reduced" PT schedule clashes became more and more difficult. Hence some clashes are between PT and PTHC. This way maybe leading to choosing a different PTHC band of course or if it`s the perfect band having clashing races then.
Regarding cobblers I think it`s difficult. Most races are classics there and hence more difficult to clash as with stage races, which includes a lot more races including GTs.
Obviously we could add more clashes in future. Would need to consider this closely but as said, I will have to take a better look later on and we can surely find a time to discuss this more in detail.
No rush. I wouldn't want you to change anything for this season anyway. It was a thought for seasons to come. Having a few of those races myself, that is very easy to plan and already knowing the opposition, I can almost write down the points before the season has started, with a +/- 15% margin. And for a freak like myself, that calculating piece is too easy, and I would tend to accelerate gains there
Challenge accepted. Your turn.
Spoiler Doubt you had me on 5th last year |
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| roturn |
Posted on 25-08-2017 12:44
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Team Manager
Posts: 22246
Joined: 24-11-2007
PCM$: 3900.00
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Ollfardh wrote:
Why are PTHC and HC equal for goals, while the former is a guaranteed full race against WT teams and the latter is not always full and competing against CT teams? It would seem to me PTHC is a lot harder to get results and therefore should be worth more?
It was a difficult decision really.
But HC is not much with CT teams. Maybe one or two all season in those last year I think. Was basically PCT vs PCT.
Reason was that the top PCT riders last year with Dan Martin, Machado, Amador, Contador, Flügel and several top sprinters aren`t even that much from PT riders really.
And as PTHC gives less points as PT or PTM, you never know how the PT managers plan those races. Surely though PTHC and HC are almost equally to succeed I think. Both will have 5-10 very strong riders from all divisions. |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 25-08-2017 12:49
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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roturn wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
Why are PTHC and HC equal for goals, while the former is a guaranteed full race against WT teams and the latter is not always full and competing against CT teams? It would seem to me PTHC is a lot harder to get results and therefore should be worth more?
It was a difficult decision really.
But HC is not much with CT teams. Maybe one or two all season in those last year I think. Was basically PCT vs PCT.
Reason was that the top PCT riders last year with Dan Martin, Machado, Amador, Contador, Flügel and several top sprinters aren`t even that much from PT riders really.
And as PTHC gives less points as PT or PTM, you never know how the PT managers plan those races. Surely though PTHC and HC are almost equally to succeed I think. Both will have 5-10 very strong riders from all divisions.
Alright, but I doubt you'll see many PCT goals in the PTHC races
I mean, especially in my area (the cobbles), there are too many race days for cobblers. Bewley will easily dominate the PTHC races.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| SotD |
Posted on 25-08-2017 13:05
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World Champion
Posts: 12188
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 2980.00
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roturn wrote:
SotD wrote:
roturn wrote:
I will read it more carefully later, SotD.
But as an example.
There are three bands in PTHC with a cobbled race. You only ride 2. So basically some kind of "clash" there already as not all 3 classics can face the same startlist.
Also PT and PTHC must be mixed a bit this year. With "reduced" PT schedule clashes became more and more difficult. Hence some clashes are between PT and PTHC. This way maybe leading to choosing a different PTHC band of course or if it`s the perfect band having clashing races then.
Regarding cobblers I think it`s difficult. Most races are classics there and hence more difficult to clash as with stage races, which includes a lot more races including GTs.
Obviously we could add more clashes in future. Would need to consider this closely but as said, I will have to take a better look later on and we can surely find a time to discuss this more in detail.
No rush. I wouldn't want you to change anything for this season anyway. It was a thought for seasons to come. Having a few of those races myself, that is very easy to plan and already knowing the opposition, I can almost write down the points before the season has started, with a +/- 15% margin. And for a freak like myself, that calculating piece is too easy, and I would tend to accelerate gains there
Challenge accepted. Your turn.
Spoiler Doubt you had me on 5th last year
I meant some of the riders - Riders like Tom David, Jerome Coppel, Panagiotis Vlatos. I can calculate those within 15% looking at this seasons calender. And I can figure out who to sell/buy in order to end up with gains. I obviously can't calculate the entire season
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