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Hill stat is not working at all right now
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| matt17br |
Posted on 18-06-2017 20:11
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Directeur Sportif
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suigfdhuibsyret wrote:
Mateo4 wrote:
Well, as I said, the stats which distinguish Basso from Valverde or Gilbert from Contador are Acceleration, Recovery, Stamina and Resistance which can make different types of climbers and separate climbers from punchers. I see that the effect of majority of stats is simply overlooked here. And the differences they make are quite big.
i agree, and they should be distinguished like that, not by the hill stat like it is now.
There's no reason to leave out a stat such as hill, your logic won't work when statting work needs to be done in lower divisions, where differences between mountain and hill are smaller. It's a lot easier for everyone to create differences through the hill stat as opposed to building bigger differences between a rider and another through all those other stats.
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| Gentleman |
Posted on 18-06-2017 20:18
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Free Agent
Posts: 138
Joined: 12-02-2009
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Mateo4 wrote:
Well, as I said, the stats which distinguish Basso from Valverde or Gilbert from Contador are Acceleration, Recovery, Stamina and Resistance which can make different types of climbers and separate climbers from punchers. I see that the effect of majority of stats is simply overlooked here. And the differences they make are quite big.
Little problem would still be Sagan though. He doesn't have great mountain stats, but his hill-stat, combined with great recovery, stamina and endurance always made the AI think he could be great in Grand Tours. He generally ends up barely making the top 10 whenever he entered as a leader - which is still incredible though. But a little ... unexpected considering his qualities.
With the hill-stat not working, this suddenly got solved 
A slight sidenote concerning the different types of climbers: steepness of a climb usually affect riders differently. Some of them can easily cope with climbs which go from 6% -> 20%, whereas others feel like they've hit a wall and need to find their rhythm.
Riders like Jungels, Dumoulin and such are climbers who get better when a climb is long and steady, rather than uneven with lots of steep parts between the regular parts. There is no acceleration necessary here because they still keep the same pace, yet some riders get hit with the steepness and need to take a step back to regain their rhythm.
I'm not sure how you can use that difference when the hill-stat disappears, because to me that always felt like the stat that determined how much impact a sudden increase in steepness has on a rider. Not that it actually worked that way in PCM, but still. That's how I felt this stat should work.
Of course you could always use the TT stat for that to determine how well you can switch gears to maintain the same pace when the steepness changes, but it doesn't seem to work that way in PCM and honestly a rider with a high TT should have more trouble with a sudden steepness. So an inverse relation perhaps?
I also recall the difference between climbers and non-climbers who could generally hang on for a little while until they exhausted all their powers. In Dutch they called that (liberal translation): 'Hanging on with power'. Technically it's riding above your qualities, going slightly into the red for a while because you know it's only a short while. Perhaps this could also be how they wanted to apply the hill-stat. As a sort of temporary boost to your mountain-stat.
Edited by Gentleman on 18-06-2017 20:25
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| Masterblaster01 |
Posted on 18-06-2017 20:48
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 362
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trekbmc wrote:
One idea I thought might be possible to implement would be to allow stage makers to set the default mo/hl ratio like in PCM14 for the stage but then to also be able to adjust it for certain splines in the stage.
So for example I might have a multi-mountain stage and be able to, when designing the stage, to say the default for the stage is a hill/mo ratio of 0, but for between kilometres 87.2-99.6 it has a ratio of 0.7 and between kilometres 112-131.7 it has a ratio of 0.9 using the spline function.
It would be a tiny bit more work for the stage maker (although they could just choose to just set a default like in PCM14 and have that be it) but could allow them to establish the importance of the hill and mo stats very precisely. It's win-win in terms of keeping things realistic and keeping things simple.
Sounds like a great idea to me! 
https://www.cyclin...rofile.jpg
This stage could then get 2 area's classified as mountains and the latter 2 bumps could be classified as hills, meaning the punchers will suffer most in the mountains and the climbers would suffer on the hills. Whoever suffers the least wins and the suffering is equal to the toughness of the climbs and more importantly, the position of the climbs in the race.
A race with 10 km flat » mont ventoux » 50 km flat » Mur de Huy kinda hill finish could still be won by a puncher, because the speed on the ventoux will probably be low enough for the punchers to survive and could they have the mountain/hill ratio advantage at the Mur (assuming punchers and climbers survived the ventoux and managed to recover over the downhill and flat part).With the old system the stage would be a mountain stage and a climber would win/have the advantage at the Mur, which would not be realistic.
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| Thatguyeveryonehates |
Posted on 18-06-2017 21:00
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Domestique
Posts: 447
Joined: 01-05-2014
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that sounds perfect |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 04:50
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 19-06-2017 08:23
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
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matt17br wrote:
valverde321 wrote:
Jarci wrote:
I wonder what were all this ,,beta testers,, doing if everything you said is true
People say this EVERY SINGLE YEAR. How about put the blame on the people making the game, since bugs like this occur every single year.
Yeah there we go again.
We tested a version of the game where only multiplayer mode was available in the month leading up to release, and according to internal sources, the AI was changed radically without us being able to test it and only being given the AI that was used in PCM 16 too.
Sorry, but what?? That does not make any sense, to test the game this way, why are you even part of something stupid like that?
You are their testers, they give you old AI and then change it in major fashion? That is beyond hillarious 
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| matt17br |
Posted on 19-06-2017 10:11
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
matt17br wrote:
valverde321 wrote:
Jarci wrote:
I wonder what were all this ,,beta testers,, doing if everything you said is true
People say this EVERY SINGLE YEAR. How about put the blame on the people making the game, since bugs like this occur every single year.
Yeah there we go again.
We tested a version of the game where only multiplayer mode was available in the month leading up to release, and according to internal sources, the AI was changed radically without us being able to test it and only being given the AI that was used in PCM 16 too.
Sorry, but what?? That does not make any sense, to test the game this way, why are you even part of something stupid like that?
You are their testers, they give you old AI and then change it in major fashion? That is beyond hillarious
Beta testing used to be useful before Focus took over its organisation. It's clear they have no idea what is going on with the game and we definitely need more communication on their side if they don't want the game they publish to suck more every year
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| Thatguyeveryonehates |
Posted on 19-06-2017 10:47
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Domestique
Posts: 447
Joined: 01-05-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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remember the lesson we learned with milram
any company named Focus is really really shit at what they do |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 19-06-2017 11:12
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
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matt17br wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
matt17br wrote:
valverde321 wrote:
Jarci wrote:
I wonder what were all this ,,beta testers,, doing if everything you said is true
People say this EVERY SINGLE YEAR. How about put the blame on the people making the game, since bugs like this occur every single year.
Yeah there we go again.
We tested a version of the game where only multiplayer mode was available in the month leading up to release, and according to internal sources, the AI was changed radically without us being able to test it and only being given the AI that was used in PCM 16 too.
Sorry, but what?? That does not make any sense, to test the game this way, why are you even part of something stupid like that?
You are their testers, they give you old AI and then change it in major fashion? That is beyond hillarious
Beta testing used to be useful before Focus took over its organisation. It's clear they have no idea what is going on with the game and we definitely need more communication on their side if they don't want the game they publish to suck more every year
It is sad, but all the fans of the series (and especially all of us who are fed up with it) can only hope it will get better in the future. I admire you and others who still try to work with them for the good of the community, so keep trying, it has to be frustrating.
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 19-06-2017 14:55
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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Well, apparently, they won't "fix" that...
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| Thatguyeveryonehates |
Posted on 19-06-2017 15:09
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Domestique
Posts: 447
Joined: 01-05-2014
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if its true that it starts at 85 and it does have an effect then thats a different story
it makes sense to make hill start working higher not at 71 like before because that made mountain less important and gerrans/gilbert won medium length mountains
but 85 may be too far
i would like to see a test video made with 85 and above up to 99 |
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| valaorome |
Posted on 19-06-2017 15:26
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Under 23
Posts: 56
Joined: 31-07-2009
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Hi,
I don't know if it's a real feeling but every year game is worst!!! Or at least the users are more CRÍTICOS or angries (I'm one of them).
This thread is a great example because HILL stat doesn't work....I don't know how to define it: PENOSO y TRISTE.
I bought and before start a career mode I wanted to know how feel the users who played before. And I think I'm gonna wait till a new version out.
I'd like to leave a message for all of us: don't buy it again. How can the sell a game doesn't work properly. In my job if I do something like this I'm on fire inmediately.
Regards
Sal a entrenar cuando te apetezca, y si quieres mejorar hazlo cuando no te apetezca.
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| cio93 |
Posted on 19-06-2017 15:39
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World Champion
Posts: 10845
Joined: 29-10-2007
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HAHAHA WHAT?!
Unless energy consumption has drastically changed, that's the worst thing ever.
My playstyle for the last 5+ years has been to NEVER go above 84 effort whenever possible until I'm ready to completely empty the bars at the end of a race, no matter what situation or what rider I'm controlling. Basically it's about using a good position before a hill and the descent after to make up for the positions I lose in the ascent itself to conserve as much yellow as possible.
It already was a setback to have hill only matter above 70 effort because I already try to stay below that to not deplete the maximum amount of yellow that you can regenerate again. 90% of my riders get stage race or climber training already because I struggle to get them to the finish in decent shape.
So this means I'll NEVER use the hill stat of ANY rider until the last 5km of a stage if I continue with that strategy? There are many stages in which I never go above 84 effort to even make it to the line...
And they don't even care to make an official statement either in a tutorial or manual or something, so people without access to or knowledge of a forum like this will be left wondering until PCM18?
And for anyone saying "just change your playstyle", good luck trying to follow every peloton movement on extreme. You won't even see the Top 50.
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| LuckyLukas |
Posted on 19-06-2017 15:51
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Under 23
Posts: 62
Joined: 29-06-2016
PCM$: 200.00
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cunego59 wrote:
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have a good idea for the interaction of hill and mountain stats, and when what stat comes into play? Something that could realistically be implemented?
In my opinion the idea of: lower efford uses mountain stat, higher efford uses hill stat can work if there is a good matrix. That's my Idea how it could work.
uphill
effort = 0-59: yellow bar is not affected because of the low effort
effort = 60: decrease of the yellow bar is only affected by the mountain stat
effort = 70: decrease of the yellow bar is affected by: 75% mo; 25 % hill
effort = 80: decrease of the yellow bar is affected by: 50% mo; 50 % hill
effort = 90: decrease of the yellow bar is affected by: 25 % mo; 75 % hill
effort = 100 decrease of the yellow bar is only affected by the hill stat
Of cause the game would need to be adjusted to that matrix.
Edited by LuckyLukas on 19-06-2017 15:59
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 19-06-2017 16:03
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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cio93 wrote:
HAHAHA WHAT?!
Unless energy consumption has drastically changed, that's the worst thing ever.
My playstyle for the last 5+ years has been to NEVER go above 84 effort whenever possible until I'm ready to completely empty the bars at the end of a race, no matter what situation or what rider I'm controlling. Basically it's about using a good position before a hill and the descent after to make up for the positions I lose in the ascent itself to conserve as much yellow as possible.
It already was a setback to have hill only matter above 70 effort because I already try to stay below that to not deplete the maximum amount of yellow that you can regenerate again. 90% of my riders get stage race or climber training already because I struggle to get them to the finish in decent shape.
So this means I'll NEVER use the hill stat of ANY rider until the last 5km of a stage if I continue with that strategy? There are many stages in which I never go above 84 effort to even make it to the line...
And they don't even care to make an official statement either in a tutorial or manual or something, so people without access to or knowledge of a forum like this will be left wondering until PCM18?
And for anyone saying "just change your playstyle", good luck trying to follow every peloton movement on extreme. You won't even see the Top 50.
I said something about those lines and they said, that it is perfectly working, as are the sprints....
I can't even fucking win a sprint in pro cyclist mode with 76 SP vs 71 SP...on normal.
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| markene2 |
Posted on 19-06-2017 16:07
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Domestique
Posts: 419
Joined: 22-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Paul23 wrote:
I said something about those lines and they said, that it is perfectly working, as are the sprints....
I can't even fucking win a sprint in pro cyclist mode with 76 SP vs 71 SP...on normal.
At this point i would just ask Steam to refund me for the game. |
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 19-06-2017 16:08
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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markene2 wrote:
Paul23 wrote:
I said something about those lines and they said, that it is perfectly working, as are the sprints....
I can't even fucking win a sprint in pro cyclist mode with 76 SP vs 71 SP...on normal.
At this point i would just ask Steam to refund me for the game.
I already played 4h in this. I really struggle with this game. I normally play on extreme and can win a fair amount, but this is currently not working well for me.
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| markene2 |
Posted on 19-06-2017 16:12
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Domestique
Posts: 419
Joined: 22-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Paul23 wrote:
markene2 wrote:
Paul23 wrote:
I said something about those lines and they said, that it is perfectly working, as are the sprints....
I can't even fucking win a sprint in pro cyclist mode with 76 SP vs 71 SP...on normal.
At this point i would just ask Steam to refund me for the game.
I already played 4h in this. I really struggle with this game. I normally play on extreme and can win a fair amount, but this is currently not working well for me.
Same here 4h, i just switched back to PCM15, I am refunding this, this gets progressively worse every year. Hope to god a competitor enters the market. |
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 19-06-2017 16:18
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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markene2 wrote:
Paul23 wrote:
markene2 wrote:
Paul23 wrote:
I said something about those lines and they said, that it is perfectly working, as are the sprints....
I can't even fucking win a sprint in pro cyclist mode with 76 SP vs 71 SP...on normal.
At this point i would just ask Steam to refund me for the game.
I already played 4h in this. I really struggle with this game. I normally play on extreme and can win a fair amount, but this is currently not working well for me.
Same here 4h, i just switched back to PCM15, I am refunding this, this gets progressively worse every year. Hope to god a competitor enters the market.
You can only refund, when you played 2h or less. Also only if you bought it directly on steam.
My favourite game is PCM 16 tho. I liked it the most, but yeah PCM 17 is as big as a success as my interactions with girls.
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| Masterblaster01 |
Posted on 19-06-2017 19:23
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 362
Joined: 07-03-2013
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Paul23 wrote:
My favourite game is PCM 16 tho. I liked it the most, but yeah PCM 17 is as big as a success as my interactions with girls.
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| cio93 |
Posted on 19-06-2017 20:05
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World Champion
Posts: 10845
Joined: 29-10-2007
PCM$: 500.00
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They're mocking us.
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