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PCM.daily Projects WT Stat Discussion
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 19-09-2016 19:14
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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We'll be doing a mtn stats revision in the next few weeks, along with some other applicable stats mostly to find out which riders to downgrade rather than upgrading. But one thing is for certain, both Froome and Quintana will be at 83 mtn regardless of the type of torture we are threatened with.
Arvin mentioned Sagan, what I would suggest is that for the Tour and the points jersey, is to manually alter him to 80 sprint for the Tour and keep him at 79 for the rest of the season, that is something I will do when I come to play the Tour.
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 19-09-2016 19:19
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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jpgm97 wrote:
I know that you had still not implemented all the pos-Vuelta stats upgrade. But are you thinking of upgrading statsof Rubén Fernándes, George Bennett, David de la Cruz, Matvey Mamykin, Davide Formolo and Egor Silin? They did a very good Vuelta.
All of those riders have been upgraded as far as I remember on the google document we use, but I will do another check on them later just in case a stat got overlooked BUT sometimes Vuelta mtn stats are not as high as the rider might deserve for his position. Given the fact that the Tour and season fatigue really kicks in at the Vuelta and a rider that might seem like he deserves more is sometimes benefitting from the fatigue of a better climber etc.
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 21-09-2016 19:57
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
Joined: 21-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Arvin mentioned Sagan, what I would suggest is that for the Tour and the points jersey, is to manually alter him to 80 sprint for the Tour and keep him at 79 for the rest of the season, that is something I will do when I come to play the Tour. He is least 80 for the rest of the season! |
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| TimoCycling |
Posted on 27-09-2016 12:14
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Sprinter
Posts: 1765
Joined: 27-08-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Little question: when is the new roster available? With all the edited transfers. |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 27-09-2016 12:21
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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You mean a 2017 DB? In early 2017 
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| TimoCycling |
Posted on 27-09-2016 12:24
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Sprinter
Posts: 1765
Joined: 27-08-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Well yeah, but can't you make one at the end of the season with just the rosters updated?
Otherwise such a long wait. I would like to play with the new teams. I understand if it isn't possible  . |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 27-09-2016 12:29
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Not really it's a lot more problematic than it sounds. The transfer season, for CT and PCT especially, never really ends. We've had to deal with transfers in CT endlessly, I'm talking about teams announcing new deals in April/May. It's 100% impossible to crank out a roster update that is not laughable at before TDU starts. Some db makers did that in the past, and it just doesn't feel right.
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| TimoCycling |
Posted on 27-09-2016 12:32
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Sprinter
Posts: 1765
Joined: 27-08-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Alright, thats too bad! I will play with normal rosters until new year then  . Thanks for the explanation. |
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| gvarv |
Posted on 27-09-2016 20:08
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Amateur
Posts: 20
Joined: 22-06-2015
PCM$: 200.00
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Thank you guys so much for your fantastic and often updated database! I am hoping that I can offer my input on some of the top riders, as I lack the insight for the massive breadth of information you guys provide. Here goes:
Name FL MNT DH COB TT PRL SPR ACC STA RES REC HILL FGT FINISHER AVERAGE
SAGAN 78 70 83 80 72 78 79 82 79 82 81 78 82 80.8 79.15
Here Sagan has received a tonedown on several stats, notably FL, MNT TT, but an increase in RES that should make up for all of them. On my installation this incarnation of Sagan actually took the green jersey in TDF, typically finishes high (but not top) in orderly sprints and is close to unbeatable in messy sprints (no lead out trains).
FINISHER is meant to indicate how good the rider is in a sprint and is calculated with the following formula:
(SPR*2+ACC*2+RES)/5. Sprint and acceleration as considered more important overall for a sprint, but resistance is the most important backup stat. In stages >200 km all bets are off!
Average is just an average of all stats, more for book keeping than anything else.
Here are some other finishers of note, with a brief note of why I slightly altered stats from the eminent google spreadsheet from page 1.
Name FL MNT DH COB TT PRL SPR ACC STA RES REC HILL FGT FINISHER AVERAGE
Bouhanni 76 63 77 66 62 71 81 81 76 80 75 73 67 80.8 72.9
Note: Bouhanni Good top speed, good acceleration. Ranks #2 in sprints with more than 10 riders this year* (though PCT)
Boasson 79 71 79 81 74 79 79 79 81 75 79 77 75 78.2 77.5
Note: Unbeatable on a good day. Wont win anything otherwise due to lowered RES
Cavendish 73 60 75 66 69 72 81 83 72 77 74 69 67 81 71.5
Note: King Cav - Needs protection, best messy sprinter (no leadout)
Greipel 77 65 77 75 65 73 82 81 75 77 75 69 70 80.6 74.2
Note:Kittel light, but more likely to make to a harder mass sprint
Kittel 76 59 78 65 70 76 83 82 73 76 79 64 65 81.2 72.8
Note: Tough to defend, but consider this a fully recovered Kittel. Dangerous in a messy sprint, unbeatable with a good leadout train. Weak in mountains and broken terrain.
Kristoff: 80 65 78 79 69 71 83 78 80 81 78 73 74 80.6 76.1
Note:Great top speed, needs lead out train. #1 sprinter 10 or more riders this year*
From this site:
https://www.procyc...s_20160927 |
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| Ad Bot |
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| gvarv |
Posted on 27-09-2016 20:21
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Amateur
Posts: 20
Joined: 22-06-2015
PCM$: 200.00
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Take away from my wall of text when it comes to sprints:
A. If we imagine infinite sprints with a random mix of messy sprints and lead out sprints sprinters should end up in this order:
#1 Kittel (81.2)
#2 Cavendish (81)
#3 tie Bouhanni & Sagan
#5 tie Greipel & Kristoff
Distant #5 Boasson (78.2)
If we imagine orderly sprints with lead out trains (sprint dominant stat), then the order (probably) becomes:
#1 Kittel (best top speed, excellent backups)
#2 Kristoff (best top speed, excellent res, no acceleration!)
#3 Greipel (Excellent top speed, good back ups)
#4 Cavendish (Excellent topspeed, best acc)
#5 Bouhanni (Very good top speed, good backups)
#6 Sagan (Good top speed, insane backups)
#7 Boasson (Good top speed, good backups)
I am trying to make sure we use as much of the scale up to 83 as possible, as well as finding ways to make each finisher unique. Please dont take this as critique of the database - it remains beyond compare!!! |
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| gvarv |
Posted on 27-09-2016 20:22
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Amateur
Posts: 20
Joined: 22-06-2015
PCM$: 200.00
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If this is at all helpful, I'll do a similar post on the top climbers/stagiers. |
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| haasje33 |
Posted on 27-09-2016 21:38
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Sprinter
Posts: 1679
Joined: 08-08-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Uhm, there is no "Finisher" stat in PCM16, I think you've misunderstood the "Baroudeur" (attacking) stat which only determines how much the rider will attack when controlled by the AI.
Inactive due to personal reasons.
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 27-09-2016 21:49
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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I think "Finisher" is his own measurement for Sprinters as a way to try and mathematically rank them? Although i'm a touch confused on the detail and the point.
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 27-09-2016 22:25
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
Joined: 21-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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SP:
82: Cavendish
81: Greipel, Kittel
80: Sagan, Bouhanni
79: Kristoff, Démare, Coquard, Degenkolb
78: Ewan, Guardini, Modolo, Nizzolo, Gaviria, Viviani
Edited by Arberg27 on 28-09-2016 11:24
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| Aquarius97 |
Posted on 27-09-2016 23:13
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4191
Joined: 13-09-2015
PCM$: 300.00
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Don't know why people still consider Guardini a 78 sprinter, when over half of his pro wins are in Langkawi (22 out 39).
He has only won 2 WT stages. I know 1 is a Giro stage in front of Cavendish, but it was 4 years ago. And then a 2014 Eneco Tour stage, where Gene was second. Really can't understand it |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 27-09-2016 23:27
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Garv: Thanks for the effort and input BUT I am a bit lost on the reason for the detail you've gone into for these riders, considering that we can never get these sprinters to race like irl based on the limitations of the game AI. The best we can do is work on tweaks like differentials between sprint and acc and the quality of leadout trains, which of course is very much dependent on whether a real startlist is used, do your own or use a random one and the rider's other stats as well.
But what we are doing at the time of writing this, is editing ' favourite rider's races' something that was never considered as being worth the effort before, for the low amount of gain it would give gameplay. As far as I know nobody has done it before on our DB.
So we've now decided that it might have more of an impact than we first thought and have chosen about 60 WT riders to edit it for and some CT level riders as well and to see how they go.
The aim is to see if these riders will be in better form for the races that they should do better in based on recent real life history. If successful we will also probably add fav weather and temperature as well and if really successful every rider in the DB will get done.
Aquarius: Look at Guardini's other stats, he's a high ranking sprinter that is only capable of winning plenty of smaller races like Langkawi. With his poor other stats, it's doubtful he'd win many other sprints in much bigger races unless on real great form.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 27-09-2016 23:33
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| Leonoel |
Posted on 28-09-2016 00:44
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Junior Rider
Posts: 37
Joined: 29-07-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
So we've now decided that it might have more of an impact than we first thought and have chosen about 60 WT riders to edit it for and some CT level riders as well and to see how they go.
So you mean that it could have an even bigger impact than only the +1 on expected race day condition?
And while I'm here in the WT thread, I'd add three minor suggestions: increase in Juraj Sagan's COB stat - he did nearly all cobble classics this spring, did some important work and still finished 45th in Flanders and 51st in Roubaix (ok, from bigger groups, but still). Maybe 69 at least.
And Michael Kolar's COB stat (62 right now) should be a bit better as well, as he was part of the Tinkoff cobble classics team in most of the races this year.
Then, you might want to have a look at Mikaël Cherel's DOH stat (only 66) - the descent from the Col de Saisies he made with Bardet at the Tour was really impressive and it was Cherel leading Bardet down there for most of the descent. |
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| gvarv |
Posted on 28-09-2016 02:20
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Amateur
Posts: 20
Joined: 22-06-2015
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Garv: Thanks for the effort and input BUT I am a bit lost on the reason for the detail you've gone into for these riders, considering that we can never get these sprinters to race like irl based on the limitations of the game AI. The best we can do is work on tweaks like differentials between sprint and acc and the quality of leadout trains, which of course is very much dependent on whether a real startlist is used, do your own or use a random one and the rider's other stats as well.
But what we are doing at the time of writing this, is editing ' favourite rider's races' something that was never considered as being worth the effort before, for the low amount of gain it would give gameplay. As far as I know nobody has done it before on our DB.
Tafiolmo Mostly I am aiming to introduce a bit of uniqueness to each of the riders, and I do realize that the game's AI will make a mockery of my attempts. I am excited about the 'favorite rider's races', since from what I saw through a few years of "be the pro" was some crazy race day bonus for riders in the favorite race.
haasje33
I apologize for my poorly formatted wall of text. "Finisher" is my own humble attempt at quantifying the impact of modifying the sprint related stats, and to provide a way to see who the top dogs of sprinting are.
From my wall of text:
"FINISHER is meant to indicate how good the rider is in a sprint and is calculated with the following formula:
(SPR*2+ACC*2+RES)/5. Sprint and acceleration as considered more important overall for a sprint, but resistance is the most important backup stat. In stages >200 km all bets are off!" |
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 28-09-2016 11:23
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
Joined: 21-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Aquarius97 wrote:
Don't know why people still consider Guardini a 78 sprinter, when over half of his pro wins are in Langkawi (22 out 39).
He has only won 2 WT stages. I know 1 is a Giro stage in front of Cavendish, but it was 4 years ago. And then a 2014 Eneco Tour stage, where Gene was second. Really can't understand it Don't know why people still thinking that there is only one stats in the game. |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 28-09-2016 12:08
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Arberg27 wrote:
Aquarius97 wrote:
Don't know why people still consider Guardini a 78 sprinter, when over half of his pro wins are in Langkawi (22 out 39).
He has only won 2 WT stages. I know 1 is a Giro stage in front of Cavendish, but it was 4 years ago. And then a 2014 Eneco Tour stage, where Gene was second. Really can't understand it Don't know why people still thinking that there is only one stats in the game.
The irony is strong here
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
