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PCM.daily Projects WT Stat Discussion
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| matt17br |
Posted on 10-09-2016 12:32
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
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PCM$: 200.00
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Yep, just missed it 
What upgrades would you suggest for Ulissi?
Bettiol is obviously going to be upgraded.
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| marcoplv95 |
Posted on 10-09-2016 12:54
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Stagiare
Posts: 210
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PCM$: 200.00
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As i said, push in most of stats, imho he's generally underrated if we compare his stats with Kwiato, etc. Because this year he's improved.
FLA 73 (+1)
MO 75/76 (+1?)
TT 74 (+1)
SP 70 (+2)
END 76/77 (+1/2?)
REC 75 (+1)
ATT 77 (+1) |
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 10-09-2016 20:18
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
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matt17br wrote:
It's possible we're going to put Froome on 79 TT. Recuperation, as we explained countless times, is a stat we redid in order to make it useful. In order to do so, we increased the differences between GC riders.
Also, you may want to try to be less obnoxious when showing your concerns about stats.
Froome is one of world's best to recuperation. So you Tour and Vuelta ? Try see his time trial in Tour (stage 18) and Vuelta (stage 19).
Also do not understand why Contador has 80 REC ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Guebk...uebk3PsB3Y
My experience is, that it is the only thing that works, just look marcoplv95.
MO:
83: Froome, Quintana
81: Nibali, Contador, Porte
80: Chaves, Bardet, Aru, Poels, Landa, Kruijswijk
TT:
81: Cancellara, Dumoulin
80: Froome, Dennis
79: Martin, Malori, Kiryienka
REC:
83: Nibali, Quintana
81: Sagan
80: Froome
Edited by Arberg27 on 10-09-2016 20:44
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| matt17br |
Posted on 10-09-2016 21:54
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Froome is one of world's best to recuperation. So you Tour and Vuelta ? Try see his time trial in Tour (stage 18) and Vuelta (stage 19).
I did, which is why he'll likely get 79, a stat higher than everyone who can fight for a GT win.
That doesn't grant him a recuperation higher than 77 though, in every single GT he's never performed living up to his 83 in the 3rd week. I'll redirect you to 2013, 2015, 2016's Tour and Vuelta 2014 and 2016 mountain results in the 3rd week.
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| jpgm97 |
Posted on 10-09-2016 22:39
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Free Agent
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Why has Nairo Quintana TT been decreased? He hasn't done a bad time trial yesterday. If you compare his time trial to Luis León Sánchez(76-TT) he only lost 6 seconds.´
Another question. Why has Contador 77 endurance, when he performed better on stages with less than 190km? Don't get me wrong, he is one of my favourite riders, but he needs an a little decrease to match his real performances, and maybe lowering his backup stats would do it, without lowering his main stats, or maybe lowering his accelaration to 78, but that I am not sure.
Edited by jpgm97 on 10-09-2016 23:06
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| matt17br |
Posted on 10-09-2016 23:08
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
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Another question. Why has Contador 77 endurance, when he performed better on stages with less than 190km? Don't get me wrong, he is one of my favourite riders, but he needs an a little decrease to match his real performances, and maybe lowering his backup stats would do it, without lowering his main stats, or maybe lowering his accelaration to 78, but that I am not sure.
Stats for this Vuelta haven't been decided yet completely, we'll take a further look on everyone and every stat that has been changed is temporary. I agree with you about Contador and we'll probably downgrade him to 75. Acceleration possibly is something to be looked at as well.
Why has Nairo Quintana TT been decreased? He hasn't done a bad time trial yesterdayl. If you compare his time trial to Luis León Sánchez(76-TT) he only lost 6 seconds.
It wasn't about yesterday, more like something to make the gaps he gets from Froome and other time trialists more similar to real life. TT in PCM, especially on 2nd/3rd weeks of grand tour, is heavily influenced by the recuperation and mountain stat. You won't see huge differences on the GT riders gaps, but riders with poorer mountain stats such as pure time trialists will perform a lot worse than GC riders.
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| jpgm97 |
Posted on 10-09-2016 23:55
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Thanks for the reply.
Okay, I look forward to see the after Vuelta stats.
I understand your decision about Quintana TT stats. But does recovery has that big importance on PCM and what aspect does it affect(shape, rythm, freshness or daily form)? Also is it possible to say more less how many time Quintana would lose to Froome in game, in a TT like yesterday, in similar conditions? |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 11-09-2016 00:41
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
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I understand your decision about Quintana TT stats. But does recovery has that big importance on PCM and what aspect does it affect(shape, rythm, freshness or daily form)?
Recovery does have a small impact when it comes to GC riders, but you notice the difference between a GC rider and a pure TTist that totally despises climbs. You can read more about rec here 
Also is it possible to say more less how many time Quintana would lose to Froome in game, in a TT like yesterday, in similar conditions?
Depends, if we decide to give Froome 79 TT which is likely it's gonna be at least 1 minute and a half on average, but it can get even wider as a gap. It's hard to say really, TTs are the most random aspect of PCM where daily form can impact a whole lot.
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| LuckyLukas |
Posted on 11-09-2016 09:33
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It wasn't about yesterday, more like something to make the gaps he gets from Froome and other time trialists more similar to real life. TT in PCM, especially on 2nd/3rd weeks of grand tour, is heavily influenced by the recuperation and mountain stat. You won't see huge differences on the GT riders gaps, but riders with poorer mountain stats such as pure time trialists will perform a lot worse than GC riders.
I'm happy that some of my arguments convinced you in the end. But to be consequent all TT stats of the GC contenders have to be changed to make their time gaps realistic as well.
As I did a lot of testing with the TT stats recently I would be glad to support you if you want me to.
Edited by LuckyLukas on 11-09-2016 17:18
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| marcoplv95 |
Posted on 11-09-2016 12:55
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Stagiare
Posts: 210
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matt17br why am i the only one you don't answer at?
If you won't take my suggestion i'd be happy to understand why do you think i am wrong |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 22:11
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| matt17br |
Posted on 11-09-2016 18:09
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Directeur Sportif
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If I don't answer to someone it's not because I necessarily think they're wrong. Normally, I only answer to suggestions I think are wrong. In your case I don't have any particular strong opinions for/against a change.
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 11-09-2016 21:49
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As Matt has said Vuelta stats haven't been totally decided yet, especially the riders that will get some deceases mostly in their back-up stats, Also Quebec and Montreal will be done together.
Thanks for the Bettiol suggestions and he is a rider that will be improved but I don't see the need to increase Ulissi anymore, as he has been on this level for a few years now winning Giro stages and similar fairly often. Where he has been improved this season, is a bit more in his mtn but the big changes for him have come in his STA.
Also putting Frome to 79 TT is debatable, it's not that he doesn't deserve it BUT he'll just end up being more invincible than he already is and may well be a game killer.
Countless times the REC stat has been mentioned and it's a stat that you actually have to make some really big differences in order to notice just a small difference between certain riders. So worrying about Froome being at 77 is not really an issue as 77 is actually a very good REC stat for a top GT rider, even if he was a bit less he's still the rider to beat in GT's, so with a rider like Quintana on 83 and Froome on 77 it slightly increases the chance that Froome might have a bad day compared to Quintana.
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| marcoplv95 |
Posted on 13-09-2016 13:11
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Stagiare
Posts: 210
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I think you underrate too much Ulissi.
At least 70 SPR after Montreal would be fair imo
But well i won't insist anymore and thanks for the answers!
Edited by marcoplv95 on 13-09-2016 13:20
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 13-09-2016 21:12
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
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marcoplv95 wrote:
I think you underrate too much Ulissi.
At least 70 SPR after Montreal would be fair imo
But well i won't insist anymore and thanks for the answers!
Far from it!!! For quite a few years before I was on the stats team I actually used to rate Ulissi at least one point higher in hill in my DB than the PCM Daily one. With his improved mtn and STA he's an OP rider so should be pretty strong all round.
Even before his mtn update I often use to see him finishing around the top 10 in the Giro whenever I played it, so he was pretty good before.
Also I will take a look at his sprint as well.
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 15-09-2016 18:34
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Posts: 1070
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Also putting Frome to 79 TT is debatable, it's not that he doesn't deserve it BUT he'll just end up being more invincible than he already is and may well be a game killer.
Countless times the REC stat has been mentioned and it's a stat that you actually have to make some really big differences in order to notice just a small difference between certain riders. So worrying about Froome being at 77 is not really an issue as 77 is actually a very good REC stat for a top GT rider, even if he was a bit less he's still the rider to beat in GT's, so with a rider like Quintana on 83 and Froome on 77 it slightly increases the chance that Froome might have a bad day compared to Quintana.
Said you also about Sagan. Both Froome and Sagan must have stats they deserve.
Game killer ? As Contador in pcmdaily 2009 db, Cancellara in pcmdaily 2010 db, Gilbert in pcmdaily 2011 db, Froome in pcmdaily 2013 db, etc.
Little fun in suddenly not wish game killer.
Edited by Arberg27 on 15-09-2016 18:58
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| matt17br |
Posted on 15-09-2016 20:27
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
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PCM$: 200.00
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Those riders were unbeatable in their best respective seasons you just listed - I'd add 2012 Boonen for example. Froome this year is not unbeatable and he's just shown it - just like he did in the other WT stage races earlier on the year, whilst he only just gave up Tirreno to Nibali in 2013 who also had one of his best years if not his best.
Sagan is also supposed not to be unbeatable. He's only unbeatable for the green jersey, but it's not like he dominates sprints, or easier hilly classics, or even cobbles. Yet, he is the rider with the highest average in the game, as well as the most well rounded, which means he has all the skills that it takes to win a green jersey with ease.
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 16-09-2016 10:26
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matt17br wrote:
Those riders were unbeatable in their best respective seasons you just listed - I'd add 2012 Boonen for example. Froome this year is not unbeatable and he's just shown it - just like he did in the other WT stage races earlier on the year, whilst he only just gave up Tirreno to Nibali who also had one of his best years if not his best.
Sagan is also supposed not to be unbeatable. He's only unbeatable for the green jersey, but it's not like he dominates sprints, or easier hilly classics, or even cobbles. Yet, he is the rider with the highest average in the game, as well as the most well rounded, which means he has all the skills that it takes to win a green jersey with ease.
Froome is unbeatable and he shown it in Tour. Of course is he not unbeatable whole year round, nobody is, not even Eddy Merckx.
Sagan is the best cobbles rider in world, better than eg Kristoff and Degenkolb in sprint and yes best green jersey rider ever.
Valverde is a game killer in your db right now. He wins only La Flèche Wallonne in the real world. |
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| jpgm97 |
Posted on 16-09-2016 12:27
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Aren't Superman TT and PR stats too hight? I mean he has very big potential, and aldredy show how good he is in the two last Tour de Suisse and did 2nd in the TT of this year, but apart from that, his results in TTs are relative bad. I am not saying that he isn't or he would be bad at that, but with that stats, in carrer mode he would be a great all rounder and GT favourite, and we still don't have the evidence he could be that. And also that TT was very strange, as many speacialist underperformed, and others who are relative bad overperformed. |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 16-09-2016 13:42
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
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You have more than a valid point, I thought he was a tad lower than 74 too. What do you think would be fairer, 72 or 73?
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| Aquarius97 |
Posted on 16-09-2016 14:21
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matt17br wrote:
You have more than a valid point, I thought he was a tad lower than 74 too. What do you think would be fairer, 72 or 73?
74 in TT M.A.Lopez!!?? That Suisse TT didn't have a flat metre. Last year he lost 3 minutes to Dumoulin, and in Pais Vasco, almost 1'30 to Contador in 16 km. Also in Romandie this year, he lost 1'30 to Pinot in 15 km
I think he doesn't deserve more than 70 in TT |
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