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Vuelta á Espana 2016
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 05-09-2016 10:51
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
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ringo182 wrote:
Strydz wrote:
This season really has shown that the rules are purely ornamental or like what happened in the Tour can just be made up on the run
I think it's too simplistic to say every rule needs to be strictly followed in every circumstance in every race. Should the race leader/top 10 rider be treated the same as riders who are an hour down. Sometimes discretion and a bit of common sense needs to be used.
For example if the yellow jersey gets knocked off by a spectator in the final kilometre of a mountain stage, should he be treated the same as a rider just rolling into the finish an hour down. Do we really want a major race decided by encroaching fans/motorbikes?
I think the organisers do need to use their discretion at some times. It would be ridiculous to kick out half of the peloton for missing the time gap so they have made a decision for the good of the race as a whole.
A fine for all teams involved and a final warning that they will be kicked out if it happens again is what should be done in this case.
Rules are for everyone and should be followed by everyone...and not just in sport, but in every element of human society. Or you want rich and powerful people (jersey holders) to have their own laws and that rules for "normal" people dont apply to them? (in fact this is happening every day worldwide, but i hate it and try to fight it).
Even more when the recent history shows how prone cycling is to corruption, we should not create situations where there is room for corruption. Just follow the rules, no matter who is concerned. All SKYbots bar Froome dont care about time limit? Kick them out...simple.
There are situation like extreme conditions or mass crashes where i can see the time limit not applied and it happened in the past, but riders completely ignoring the limit and just crusing to the finish as during the weekend ride? Lol, no...
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 05-09-2016 11:04
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Classics Specialist
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
Strydz wrote:
This season really has shown that the rules are purely ornamental or like what happened in the Tour can just be made up on the run
I think it's too simplistic to say every rule needs to be strictly followed in every circumstance in every race. Should the race leader/top 10 rider be treated the same as riders who are an hour down. Sometimes discretion and a bit of common sense needs to be used.
For example if the yellow jersey gets knocked off by a spectator in the final kilometre of a mountain stage, should he be treated the same as a rider just rolling into the finish an hour down. Do we really want a major race decided by encroaching fans/motorbikes?
I think the organisers do need to use their discretion at some times. It would be ridiculous to kick out half of the peloton for missing the time gap so they have made a decision for the good of the race as a whole.
A fine for all teams involved and a final warning that they will be kicked out if it happens again is what should be done in this case.
Rules are for everyone and should be followed by everyone...and not just in sport, but in every element of human society. Or you want rich and powerful people (jersey holders) to have their own laws and that rules for "normal" people dont apply to them? (in fact this is happening every day worldwide, but i hate it and try to fight it).
Even more when the recent history shows how prone cycling is to corruption, we should not create situations where there is room for corruption. Just follow the rules, no matter who is concerned. All SKYbots bar Froome dont care about time limit? Kick them out...simple .
There are situation like extreme conditions or mass crashes where i can see the time limit not applied and it happened in the past, but riders completely ignoring the limit and just crusing to the finish as during the weekend ride? Lol, no...
Nibali was kicked out of the 2015 Vuelta for holding onto a motorbike.
Quintana was filmed holding onto a motorbike at the 2016 Tour during the Froome Motorbike incident. By the letter of the law Quintana should have been kicked off the Tour. But the organisers used their discretion and common sense to make a decision which took in the extenuating circumstances.
That is how it should work. If a rule is broken then extenuating circumstances need to be taken into account before the rule is enforced to the letter. In this case the extenuating circumstance is that 90+ riders are involved so a decision has been made to reflect that.
Also, you imply that it was Sky's fault in some way. Do you expect Team Sky to drag 90+ riders to the finish within the time limit? Every rider in that group was equally responsible. You can't single out one team.
But then again this is PCMDaily so it doesn't surprise me that the British team is to blame as usual. |
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| Selwink |
Posted on 05-09-2016 11:07
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8856
Joined: 17-05-2012
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If a rule is broken then extenuating circumstances need to be taken into account before the rule is enforced to the letter. In this case the extenuating circumstance is that 90+ riders are involved so a decision has been made to reflect that.
I can imagine that these circumstances are applied when the time limit is exceeded by a bit. But in the case of more than 20 minutes later than the time limit, there's no excuse for that in my opinion.
But then again this is PCMDaily so it doesn't surprise me that the British team is to blame as usual.
Sigh, again the idea that it's anti-British? That's why Cummings is one of the most appreciated riders here, along with the Yates's.
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 05-09-2016 11:15
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
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Selwink wrote:
If a rule is broken then extenuating circumstances need to be taken into account before the rule is enforced to the letter. In this case the extenuating circumstance is that 90+ riders are involved so a decision has been made to reflect that.
I can imagine that these circumstances are applied when the time limit is exceeded by a bit. But in the case of more than 20 minutes later than the time limit, there's no excuse for that in my opinion.
So if you were the organiser of the Vuelta would you honestly kick out half of the Peloton? The Vuelta is already seen as the poor relation of the Giro & Tour. Doing that would remove any credibility the race has and turn it into a mockery.
How are the race sponsors going to react to that? Will they want their name associated with such a farce? How are teams going to react to having half their riders kicked out. Will they bother sending any decent riders next year.
There is much more to it then simply following the rule to it's absolute written form. As I say, extenuating circumstances should be considered. |
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| Selwink |
Posted on 05-09-2016 11:22
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8856
Joined: 17-05-2012
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So if you were the organiser of the Vuelta would you honestly kick out half of the Peloton? The Vuelta is already seen as the poor relation of the Giro & Tour. Doing that would remove any credibility the race has and turn it into a mockery.
You think it's good for the credibility that they keep riders in who exceeded the time limit with over 20 minutes? I'd think that actually applying the rules would give more credibility, not less. I don't think it would be a mockery.
And again, I agree extenuating circumstances should be taken into account, but in this case the breaking of the time limit was so extreme I see no excuse for letting them in, even though it's that many riders.
According to Koen de Kort the riders decided to just sit up when it was clear they wouldn't reach the time limit anymore. Seems to me like they already anticipated on this decision.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 05-09-2016 11:26
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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ringo182 wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
Strydz wrote:
This season really has shown that the rules are purely ornamental or like what happened in the Tour can just be made up on the run
I think it's too simplistic to say every rule needs to be strictly followed in every circumstance in every race. Should the race leader/top 10 rider be treated the same as riders who are an hour down. Sometimes discretion and a bit of common sense needs to be used.
For example if the yellow jersey gets knocked off by a spectator in the final kilometre of a mountain stage, should he be treated the same as a rider just rolling into the finish an hour down. Do we really want a major race decided by encroaching fans/motorbikes?
I think the organisers do need to use their discretion at some times. It would be ridiculous to kick out half of the peloton for missing the time gap so they have made a decision for the good of the race as a whole.
A fine for all teams involved and a final warning that they will be kicked out if it happens again is what should be done in this case.
Rules are for everyone and should be followed by everyone...and not just in sport, but in every element of human society. Or you want rich and powerful people (jersey holders) to have their own laws and that rules for "normal" people dont apply to them? (in fact this is happening every day worldwide, but i hate it and try to fight it).
Even more when the recent history shows how prone cycling is to corruption, we should not create situations where there is room for corruption. Just follow the rules, no matter who is concerned. All SKYbots bar Froome dont care about time limit? Kick them out...simple .
There are situation like extreme conditions or mass crashes where i can see the time limit not applied and it happened in the past, but riders completely ignoring the limit and just crusing to the finish as during the weekend ride? Lol, no...
Nibali was kicked out of the 2015 Vuelta for holding onto a motorbike.
Quintana was filmed holding onto a motorbike at the 2016 Tour during the Froome Motorbike incident. By the letter of the law Quintana should have been kicked off the Tour. But the organisers used their discretion and common sense to make a decision which took in the extenuating circumstances.
That is how it should work. If a rule is broken then extenuating circumstances need to be taken into account before the rule is enforced to the letter. In this case the extenuating circumstance is that 90+ riders are involved so a decision has been made to reflect that.
Also, you imply that it was Sky's fault in some way. Do you expect Team Sky to drag 90+ riders to the finish within the time limit? Every rider in that group was equally responsible. You can't single out one team.
But then again this is PCMDaily so it doesn't surprise me that the British team is to blame as usual.
And what exactly was the special circumstances yesterday that made so many people ignore the time limit, hard race? That is not an excuse...
I used SKY as an example, because they had whole team bar their leader there and could use that strenght to finish inside the limit. Instead they ignored it, because they were sure nobody will kick them out, leaving Froome alone in the race. I have nothing against british cyclists in general (but confess that i rate Froome and Cav as two of the biggest pricks in the field, but not becaue of nationality).
To your last post, what sponsors would say? Dont know, maybe sue the riders that know the rules and still ignore it? They should be at least all fined after being kicked out...ignoring rules makes the race less credible btw.
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| ringo182 |
Posted on 05-09-2016 11:39
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
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I agree the riders should be punished.
But kicking out half the peloton punishes the race itself. The Vuelta would suffer as a race if it started kicking out 90 plus riders.
There is more to take into account when enforcing rules then simply following the rule to the letter. If you followed the rules then everyone would be kicked out for drafting cars & motorbikes, sticky bottles, mechanics adjusting saddles, taking food/water from fans or other teams.
In this case the extenuating circumstance is that half of the peloton are involved. A grand tour finishing with less than 100 riders would be ridiculous. |
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| wisdow23 |
Posted on 05-09-2016 12:38
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Posts: 173
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Would be ridiculous, you are right. But the riders itself are to blame. No one hold them to lose 54 minutes, not a crash..nothing. They just decided to take a rest. And (as someone said about Nathan Haas) if a rider suffer a crash/sickness or injury and is OOT would be kicked out. And in the same time 94 (professionals) desides to do a "nice Sunday ride" and none of them is kicked out.
This is disgaceful for the sport. There are rules and being a 90 man peloton OOT with no 1-2 minutes but 24 (!) in not that hard of a stage is unacceptable. |
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| Selwink |
Posted on 05-09-2016 13:12
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8856
Joined: 17-05-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Break of the day
 Bystrøm
 Costa
 Dillier
 Maté
 Morice
 Villella
If the break lasts I hope Maté or Villella wins 
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 05-09-2016 13:40
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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Selwink wrote:
Break of the day
Bystrøm
Costa
Dillier
Maté
Morice
Villella
If the break lasts I hope Maté or Villella wins
Froome also wins
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Aquarius97 |
Posted on 05-09-2016 14:45
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4191
Joined: 13-09-2015
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Translate: Me, in that case, i wouldn't let them have a rest day
https://twitter.c...8371812353 |
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| Luxemburger |
Posted on 05-09-2016 16:01
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1215
Joined: 22-07-2014
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I'm surprised that the field is so keen in chasing the attackers, I expected another day for the break today.
Kirchen's second account according to Spilak23, 21-07-2016 17:16
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| Strydz |
Posted on 05-09-2016 16:03
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Team Leader
Posts: 5894
Joined: 02-08-2011
PCM$: 1625.00
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ringo182 wrote:
I agree the riders should be punished.
But kicking out half the peloton punishes the race itself. The Vuelta would suffer as a race if it started kicking out 90 plus riders.
There is more to take into account when enforcing rules then simply following the rule to the letter. If you followed the rules then everyone would be kicked out for drafting cars & motorbikes, sticky bottles, mechanics adjusting saddles, taking food/water from fans or other teams.
In this case the extenuating circumstance is that half of the peloton are involved. A grand tour finishing with less than 100 riders would be ridiculous.
Why would the Vuelta suffer if the kicked those loafers out? On Stage 2 of the 1998 Tierreno-Adriatico 125 riders were kicked out of the race for finishing outside the time limit yet T-A is still considered a prestigeous race. So what if today started with 70 riders, we would see unpredictable racing and whoever wins the stage would still be celebrated and by the races end even if only 50 finished the race then why would it harm tha race? The decision to leave the riders in is what harms the race and gives the race less credibility.
Also to my point about what happened at the Tour and what happened here. What happened at the Tour was a joke, I don't care if it was the Yellow jersey or some guy down in the standings who got involved with the moto the decision was farcical as they did make up the rules on the go instead of doing what should of been done and amending the rules at the next rules committee to deal with that situation. What they did yesterday is again show a lack of care for the rules, those riders knew what they were doing and got away with it, how is that okay? They don't care about a fine, time penalty, points penalty as they don't matter, they would of cared if they got kicked out of the race. That decision really sets a bad precedent
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 05-09-2016 16:16
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Posts: 7357
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Fastest sprinter attacking 
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| Miguel98 |
Posted on 05-09-2016 16:21
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World Champion
Posts: 10497
Joined: 23-06-2011
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That is possibly one of the cancerous sprints I've ever seen. jesus fuck, that was awful. |
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| Luxemburger |
Posted on 05-09-2016 16:21
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Posts: 1215
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Kirchen's second account according to Spilak23, 21-07-2016 17:16
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 05-09-2016 16:22
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Posts: 7357
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Miguel98 wrote:
That is possibly one of the cancerous sprints I've ever seen. jesus fuck, that was awful.
Top 10 of riders who should have been send home
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 05-09-2016 16:22
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Team Leader
Posts: 7357
Joined: 22-08-2011
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If Bennati takes a rest day yesterday like the others does he win here?
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| Miguel98 |
Posted on 05-09-2016 16:29
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World Champion
Posts: 10497
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Esteban Chaves is the real winner of today's stage |
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| Eden95 |
Posted on 05-09-2016 16:29
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Posts: 4505
Joined: 05-10-2010
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Finally Arndt fucking did something!
Indosat - ANZ HQ
"This Schleck sandwich is going to cause serious indigestion for Evans" - Phil Liggett |
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