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PCM.daily Projects WT Stat Discussion
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 19-07-2016 21:53
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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I'd be interested to see the HL and CB stats of Sagan, Coquard, Kristoff and Degenkolb. And the HL and SP/ACC of Matthews. Just to get a better understanding on how the in-game sprint field is shaping up.
I also think you've underrated McLays ACC a bit, he's a really fast finisher but comes through late on. Should be 76SP 79/80ACC to me, countered by a slight loss in something like FL or other supports.
What i like from this Tour is that we've seen which riders are really good sprinters, and not just high wattage guys coming off a train. Shame we can't input those mental stats like Aggression and Anticipation....
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 19-07-2016 22:27
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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TheManxMissile wrote:
I'd be interested to see the HL and CB stats of Sagan, Coquard, Kristoff and Degenkolb. And the HL and SP/ACC of Matthews. Just to get a better understanding on how the in-game sprint field is shaping up.
I also think you've underrated McLays ACC a bit, he's a really fast finisher but comes through late on. Should be 76SP 79/80ACC to me, countered by a slight loss in something like FL or other supports.
What i like from this Tour is that we've seen which riders are really good sprinters, and not just high wattage guys coming off a train. Shame we can't input those mental stats like Aggression and Anticipation....
Riders like McLay and Enger for example are tricky to do and need to be worked on more for sure, as they're riders that can go with higher acc than their sprint by at least a few points and less flat to make them more inconsistent in contesting sprints.
You've also asked about certain cobble stats which suggests that you're thinking about yesterday's stage I think? If so it's a case of how the game reads a stage like that, because irl this is just city cobbles like at the last worlds where a non-cobbled specialists can finish very highly. We only tend to really base cobbles anyway on the spring classics and at all level of races at that part of the season. When cobbles appear in a GT or another race we tend to just boost certain riders to a decent level like say at the worlds or riders that finished highly on a city cobble stage like yesterday so they can compete.
Matthews and Sagan have the highest hill at 76 and the others between 73 and 74.
Also we tend to underrate riders in preference to putting them highly initially anyway and going back to McLay he's a perfect example here of a sprinter that can almost win a stage but can equally disappear on a whole load of other stages.
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 19-07-2016 23:07
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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I was asking about Cobbles more thinking about how the game might race Gent-Wevelgem or how it might affect something like Paris-Roubaix, as Sagan/Kristoff/Degen have previous in those races and i can't remember their stats 
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 20-07-2016 09:09
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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So Sagan will stay underrated, because you are afraid he will be as good as in real life, yep, way to go. (at least we have editor).
Just for the lulz i have simulated Tour de France yesterday evening in the game and he did not win single stage and finished third in green jersey competiton behind Greipel and Kittel.
He is currently still underrated in flat, sprint, resistance and recovery.
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 20-07-2016 17:57
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
So Sagan will stay underrated, because you are afraid he will be as good as in real life, yep, way to go. (at least we have editor).
Just for the lulz i have simulated Tour de France yesterday evening in the game and he did not win single stage and finished third in green jersey competiton behind Greipel and Kittel.
He is currently still underrated in flat, sprint, resistance and recovery.
He's probably going to 81 flat but the rest of his stats are pretty good imo making him the best all rounder for the classics and the races that he's suited to.
Unless we inflate his sprint stat the green jersey competition is really more of an AI problem. If the game AI concentrated on getting him into breaks, picking up points on hill and mtn stages then he would win the green jersey competition. Instead the game AI just treats him as a lesser sprinter. Even when he was on 80 sprint some years ago he never really looked like winning the green jersey either.
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 20-07-2016 18:11
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
Joined: 21-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Forza-Diavolo wrote:
Mo Stats:
Froome:83
Mollema 81
Quintana 81
Porte 81
Aru 81
Nibali 81
Contador 81
Simon Yates 80
Valverde 80
Rodriguez 80
Bardet 80
Van Garderen 80
Dan Martin 80
Meintjes 79
Kreuziger 79
You forgot Poels and the other Sky riders  |
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| Anderis |
Posted on 20-07-2016 20:39
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Domestique
Posts: 471
Joined: 13-09-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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What are Bettiol's stats after Tour de Pologne? |
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| Forever the Best |
Posted on 20-07-2016 20:45
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3803
Joined: 27-06-2014
PCM$: 400.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Omloop wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
@Andreas
For the next update kristoff has had a sizeable decrease from 81 to 79 sprint which makes him the same as Sagan but with his inferior acc and Sagan's high acc Sagan should be better now. To be fair Kristoff has been badly out of form all season really.
Could you please post the current or planned spr and acc stats?
These are as I have them in the DB BUT I guarantee that there is probably a 75% certainty that some of these will be changed when the stats team vote on it and also keep in mind stage 21 will be influential as well. For example acc and other relevant stats will be tweaked to suit these riders better as well.
Cavendish 82/83
Kittel 82/82
Greipel 82/80
Sagan 79/83
Coquard 79/81
Kristoff 79/78
Degenkolb 78/79
Groenewegen 77/78
Theuns 76/77
Enger 76/77
McLay 76/77
Laporte 75/76 Sagan 79 is way too low.Also as much as I like Greipel he should be 81(I think his back-up stats are better than Kittel). |
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| Jorge14 |
Posted on 20-07-2016 21:44
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Stagiare
Posts: 184
Joined: 15-03-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Stats for Tejay, any idea? Recovery very low and resistance not high?
Will be nice if exists a stat called "after rest day", Van Garderen needs 0  |
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 20-07-2016 21:54
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
Joined: 27-07-2011
PCM$: 10438.70
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Nah, maybe just give him 74 mountain and call it a day.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 21-07-2016 08:51
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Anderis: I've made some changes to him already as most of his stats were too mid 60s and I especially improved his TT level as well. If you want to suggest some improved stats for him then please do so as all I've seen from Poland are just a few highlights and have relied on just scanning through the results.
Schleck: As said there's a 75% chance that some of those stats will change and Sagan will be measured against those nearest him in the stats but bear in mind that with his 4 point difference between his sprint and acc he will probably performs 1 point better in a sprint anyway.
Jorge: TVG has been on 80 for a while and will end up between 80 or 79. He's actually a good climber and worth those stats, his problem though is that he's not a GT rider as he either gets sick like last year or blows up like he's shown this Tour, so in effect he's really got a REC problem rather than a climbing one.
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 23:22
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Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
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| henrikcomn |
Posted on 21-07-2016 09:55
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Under 23
Posts: 60
Joined: 13-07-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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The problem with all of you guys stats, is that they paint a here-and-now picture of how they are performing.
These stats will not make sense when playing a career. None of you is taking into account bad form and such.
For example, the main reason Quintana is bad this year is proberly not because Froome is super strong, but because Quintana is in bad shape.
If you put Froome at 83 MO and Quintana 81, you risk Quintana showing up in the game playing a career, at the Tour de France with MO stats equal to 78 and Froome in his best shape at 83. This will create an even bigger gap!
Career-stats should be based on top form, where the rider rides up to his full potential.
The stats you are currently suggesting, is only good if you ride grand tours only, and not career. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 21-07-2016 10:31
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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henrikcomn wrote:
The problem with all of you guys stats, is that they paint a here-and-now picture of how they are performing.
These stats will not make sense when playing a career. None of you is taking into account bad form and such.
For example, the main reason Quintana is bad this year is proberly not because Froome is super strong, but because Quintana is in bad shape.
If you put Froome at 83 MO and Quintana 81, you risk Quintana showing up in the game playing a career, at the Tour de France with MO stats equal to 78 and Froome in his best shape at 83. This will create an even bigger gap!
Career-stats should be based on top form, where the rider rides up to his full potential.
The stats you are currently suggesting, is only good if you ride grand tours only, and not career.
I take it you're referring to the guys that make stat suggestions here rather than the stats team, because primarily 75% of the stats for a rider are based on the last 6 months or so and only around 25% on current form which is why Quintana won't have a mtn decrease and Greipel will probably stay as he his in our DB.
We're fully aware also that in the game pre-race form and daily form are also vital factors of how a rider is going to perform as well and need to be considered.
The downside of this approach for some players though and we constantly try to explain this, is that when a rider does really well in one race for example Roglic and TT at the Giro and how Yates with is mtn is doing in the Tour they might not get stats as high as some people would like for the simple reason their excellent performance might just be down to their great real life form along with taking advantage of the bad form of their rivals. So for these kind of riders to get an even higher stat they need to maintain this level for a little while longer.
Saying all this though, we would still consider a GT especially the Tour to give some weight to improving a rider than if he was doing for example a race like Catalunya. Also a rider like Yates probably won't be a position to ride big mtn stages again till maybe next season unless he does the Vuelta but then the Tour fatigue factor would kick in so really it's a question of getting the right balance with these riders and everybody is going to be subjective on this to a degree anyway.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 21-07-2016 11:27
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Schleck: As said there's a 75% chance that some of those stats will change and Sagan will be measured against those nearest him in the stats but bear in mind that with his 4 point difference between his sprint and acc he will probably performs 1 point better in a sprint anyway.
That sounds great in theory, but in reality in my game with those stats, he does not stand a chance to be on podium in a flat stage against Kittel, Greipel and Cavendish.
And he is not green jersey winner in reality only because of breaks in mountain stages, but also because he is constantly on podium or near it in pure flat stages. He needs at least 80 sprint in the game, anybody who have seen a sprint stage this years Tour knows that he is not much behind in pure speed, not to justify 2-3 points lower stat. He was coming from the back often, Cavendish has won the sprints thanks to perfect timing and positioning.
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 21-07-2016 11:55
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Schleck: As said there's a 75% chance that some of those stats will change and Sagan will be measured against those nearest him in the stats but bear in mind that with his 4 point difference between his sprint and acc he will probably performs 1 point better in a sprint anyway.
That sounds great in theory, but in reality in my game with those stats, he does not stand a chance to be on podium in a flat stage against Kittel, Greipel and Cavendish.
And he is not green jersey winner in reality only because of breaks in mountain stages, but also because he is constantly on podium or near it in pure flat stages. He needs at least 80 sprint in the game, anybody who have seen a sprint stage this years Tour knows that he is not much behind in pure speed, not to justify 2-3 points lower stat. He was coming from the back often, Cavendish has won the sprints thanks to perfect timing and positioning.
To be fair you do put a good case for 80 sprint here and agree that Sagan's strength is his consistency to constantly finish highly in sprints in 2-4 spot the breakaway/climbing comments were just to demonstrate where the AI messes up. In the year's I've been playing this game I've never seen Sagan ever win the green jersey in the Tour, so I guess we need to do something about that in-game especially since he's on his way to setting a record in the competition.
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| dev4ever |
Posted on 21-07-2016 12:04
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2282
Joined: 13-03-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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Kristoff 79 spr and 78 acc? Rip, hard to see him 3 points worse than kittel and greipel in both stats considering he had a pretty similar tdf to them (top results atleast) Other stats are more likely to favour cav than kittel aswell
Heres my view: Cav is the fastest accelarator, together with Sagan. 83 is probably deserved for each.
Kittel is the fastest sprinter in the world, but I guess with one bad tdf its hard to remaign that status. Id put him at 83 still as only sprinter but with a bit worse acc.
Then cav and greipel at 82, with greipel also having a much worse acc (not fair downgrading someone too much because of one bad tdf imo..
Kristoff follows at 81, he is still a top 5 sprinter in the world, bike throw or no bike throw..
Then the 'bunch' with bouhanni, sagan at 80
Coquard at 79 with great acc (81 atleast) and Demare is also a quick, but not that great top speed. Would put him at 80 with 81 acc but hes too often a no-show in regular sprints
Kittel: 83/81
Cav: 82/83
Greipel: 82/80
Kristoff: 81/80
Bouhanni: 80/79
Sagan: 80/83
demare: 79/80
Coquard:79/82
Just my punt, no idea how much TdF is taken into play. But cant see how Greipel and Kristoff should be considerably worse than cav and not come close/win a few stages when they were really close several times in the tour
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| Jorge14 |
Posted on 21-07-2016 12:19
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Stagiare
Posts: 184
Joined: 15-03-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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One think i notice Tafiolmo, im tooking a look on PRO CT teams and see Barry Markus with 66hills and Michel Kreder with 72, Kreder have nice results on hills but i think 70 is more realistic, he only manage to came in some groups but dont do anything special. To Barry Markus i put him on 63, is more a good flat guy with nice endurance, but for climbs( mountain or hill) he does very bad because of the weight, a 66 is too high for kinda rider he his, is my opinion, opefully you can give yours men.
Also Marc De Maar for 70mountain is too high, is more a hilly guy, something like 66will be nice, is results on mountain are nothing special |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 21-07-2016 12:23
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Schleck: As said there's a 75% chance that some of those stats will change and Sagan will be measured against those nearest him in the stats but bear in mind that with his 4 point difference between his sprint and acc he will probably performs 1 point better in a sprint anyway.
That sounds great in theory, but in reality in my game with those stats, he does not stand a chance to be on podium in a flat stage against Kittel, Greipel and Cavendish.
And he is not green jersey winner in reality only because of breaks in mountain stages, but also because he is constantly on podium or near it in pure flat stages. He needs at least 80 sprint in the game, anybody who have seen a sprint stage this years Tour knows that he is not much behind in pure speed, not to justify 2-3 points lower stat. He was coming from the back often, Cavendish has won the sprints thanks to perfect timing and positioning.
To be fair you do put a good case for 80 sprint here and agree that Sagan's strength is his consistency to constantly finish highly in sprints in 2-4 spot the breakaway/climbing comments were just to demonstrate where the AI messes up. In the year's I've been playing this game I've never seen Sagan ever win the green jersey in the Tour, so I guess we need to do something about that in-game especially since he's on his way to setting a record in the competition.
Sounds fair. I know that AI makes it hard to balance Sagan, because he is pretty much unique rider type and you cant really simulate in game that he demolishes other for green jersey by 100+ points (those mountain stages breaks for points, that is something Cyanide should look on, it is vital part of cycling for such a long time be it Hushovd, Sagan or other similar types). So hopefully upping his sprint to 80 can at least make himk somewhat competitive in flat stages for podium or 4th spots, but still AI flaws will make it hard for him to win green against 82-83 sprint guys. But that is not your fault. 
Dev4ever: I think you overrate Kristoff a bit mate, no way he is 4th best sprinter of nowadays behind "big three".
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 21-07-2016 12:50
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 21-07-2016 12:48
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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DeveEver: These are actually some good suggested stats, the only ones I disagree is Kristoff at 81 though but I think my 79 may well be too low as well so an 80 might get the right balance here but some good reasoning especially with the top three sprinters though and your post will be heavily considered when we finalize the sprint stats after stage 21 also Bouhanni is a natural sprinter and should have an acc higher than his sprint.
Jorge: Thanks for that info and will look at those guys
Arvin: If a rider's favourite/preferred race option actually worked as it should, the point's jersey could be done for Sagan which would enable him to go all out for the points jersey but that of course is me dreaming about a perfect game.
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 21-07-2016 16:45
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
Joined: 21-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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and REC boost. |
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
