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PCM.daily Projects WT Stat Discussion
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 07-07-2016 17:35
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83: Cavendish (82acc)
82: Kittel (83acc), Greipel (80acc)
80: Bouhanni, Kristoff
79: Degenkolb, Démare, Sagan, Coquard
78: Viviani, McLay, Groenewegen, Modolo, Nizzolo, Ewan, Gaviria
77: Guardini, Theuns, Hofland, Laporte, Boasson Hagen, Matthews
Cavendish fastest top speed and Kittel fastest acc.
Edited by Arberg27 on 07-07-2016 18:34
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 07-07-2016 17:43
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Directeur Sportif
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Arberg27 wrote:
83: Cavendish (82acc)
82: Kittel (83acc), Greipel (80acc)
80: Bouhanni, Kristoff
79: Degenkolb, Démare, Sagan, Coquard
78: Viviani, McLay, Groenewegen, Modolo, Nizzolo, Ewan, Gaviria
77: Guardini, Theuns, Hofland, Laporte, Boasson Hagen, Matthews
I was about to ask if you´re trolling, then I doublechecked and now I don´t even have to ask...
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 07-07-2016 18:16
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Instead of calling people trolling, could you raise your level and write what you disagree with people in and arguments it. |
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| Ascend |
Posted on 07-07-2016 18:22
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Amateur
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Cavendish 82, Kristoff 79, Nizzolo 79, Degenkolb 78 and too soon to give Mclay 78 |
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 07-07-2016 19:01
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Arberg27 wrote:
Instead of calling people trolling, could you raise your level and write what you disagree with people in and arguments it.
You are mixing completely different riders into same categories. Maybe you´ll be happy now that I´m not the main guy doing WT stats, but I´ll try to give my personal opinion. There is no way Cavendish can be higher than Kittel in sprinting right now because of different reasons:
note these are only personal opinions
Cavendish vs. Kittel
1. he is not faster overall
2. he didn´t do faster sprints than Kittel this Tour (mostly due to horrible positioning by Kittel though
overall Tour so far
3. we are seeing the worst sprinting performances for years at the Tour - I´ve seen no sprint yet that is worth to give an outstanding stat for (Greipel on stage 1 & Groenewegen on stage 4 come nearest) - the first Giro stages were one class above in terms of sprinting level
as an example for that take todays stage - the Bora leadout rider (Archbold) came in 10th not too far behind the winner - a decent leadout guy but terrible on his own; Laporte, who sits in the train for Bouhanni normally, can finish constantly in the Top8 despite doing nearly nothing on his own so far...
4. the current messy sprints can´t really be representative for judging the top-speed of a rider, we get a better look on the ACC though
5. every sprint (despite Kittels ictory) benefitted from a long sit on a backwheel of a guy - in 3 cases the most intelligent sprint won and not the most powerful (though it might have been the most powerful one today too)
6. most sprints had a long distance or a rising finish line ahead, which PCM traits different from "pure Qatar sprints"
7. we have to wait for the whole tour for judging sprint stats
to the non TDF-riding guys
How can you see Nizzolo on the same level as McLay?
How can you see Theuns on the same level as Guardini?
How can you see Boasson Hagen faster than a guy like Pelucchi?
How can you see Modolo 2 points slower than Kristoff (+backUp stats!!!) and 5!!! points slower than Cavendish
How can you see Laporte faster than f.e. Lobato?
a final question: Do you include back-up stats in your stating? Because like that f.e. Boasson Hagen will have a +3 over Guardini in terms of sprint ability
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 07-07-2016 19:42
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How many stages has Kittel won in TDF? How many has Cavendish?
The two stages in the Giro won Kittel on awesome acc (as you can see, I give him 83acc) and opponents were much worse example was Cavendish not with.
Opponents are better in Tour, so Kittel and Greipel has this not as easy as in Giro.
Answers to all your questions is yes. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 07-07-2016 21:54
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Sprinter
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Arberg27 wrote:
How many stages has Kittel won in TDF? How many has Cavendish?
The two stages in the Giro won Kittel on awesome acc (as you can see, I give him 83acc) and opponents were much worse example was Cavendish not with.
Opponents are better in Tour, so Kittel and Greipel has this not as easy as in Giro.
Answers to all your questions is yes.
The thing is as you know, nobody takes you seriously for the simple reason you constantly back whoever is in form or currently the best. For example only a few months ago you were harping on about how Kittel was far superior to everybody else in sprints and should be higher. But now because he's suffered from a few setbacks you can't wait to put him down. Your now championing Cav but again a slight loss of form and you'll want him down.
You constantly go on about improving somebody like Sagan on earlier posts even more, only because he's doing so well but if he goes through another bad patch you'll have the knives out for him and I dread to think what would happen if Froome fails to win the Tour and if he does you'll probably be proposing a decrease for him and an 84 mtn for the rider that beats him. Point here being, it's easy to troll and back whoever is currently the best and then want decreases for who's not performing this week or month.
It also seems you're not aware of how backup stats work because numerous people on here have constantly given examples to you countless times and mentioned them when discussing certain riders which you constantly ignore.
As Croatia has said the quality of sprinting at the Tour has been terrible with riders setting their trains too early, losing position or just getting boxed in but of course all will have their stats looked at but with all this taken into consideration.
Finally if you made some attempt to be constructive instead of flaming posts, it would be of benefit to everybody.
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 07-07-2016 22:12
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Things change quickly in sport world  Stats not here and now? Why made ​​an update every month so?
Edited by Arberg27 on 07-07-2016 22:15
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| matt17br |
Posted on 07-07-2016 22:15
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Why made ​​an update every month so?
Aw come on why do you think we make monthly updates? There's a difference between upgrading who is on form during a month span and who is on form during a whole year span.
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 07-07-2016 22:19
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World Champion
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By le Arberg logic Archbold to 76 acc/sprint plz
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT]  Xero Racing
5x  x5
2x  x2
2x  x2 |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 08:27
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 07-07-2016 22:57
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Directeur Sportif
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Arberg27 wrote:
Instead of calling people trolling, could you raise your level and write what you disagree with people in and arguments it.
I forgot something: your point "argumenting" is a great one: in addition to the roster you posted it would be great if there was at least some explanation to have a fluent argunetation we can criticize on...
To the value of the current Tour de France: Keep in mind that in PCM mass sprints are laways handled by sprint trains - if you compare PCM sprints and TDF sprints you see how valueable the TDF sprints are for taking it over into PCM logic...
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| Dusen |
Posted on 07-07-2016 23:14
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I've been wondering, do you guys think that Kittel and Greipel maybe is paying a price for attending the Giro? I know they didn't ride the whole thing, but the difference between those three is that Cavendish has very few race days and haven't been riding the Giro, while Greipel and Kittel have.
I don't know how easy it is to find top form again so quickly again. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 07-07-2016 23:20
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Sprinter
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Dusen wrote:
I've been wondering, do you guys think that Kittel and Greipel maybe is paying a price for attending the Giro? I know they didn't ride the whole thing, but the difference between those three is that Cavendish has very few race days and haven't been riding the Giro, while Greipel and Kittel have.
I don't know how easy it is to find top form again so quickly again.
I don't think so and certainly not in the case of Kittel as he dropped out very early, in fact a rider that say rides no more than the first two weeks could be in great form for the Tour.
Kittel and Grepiel have just been poor so far in general but at least Kittel scraped a stage. The DS's really need to examjne their team tactics and both Kittel and Greipel shouldn't be losing position like they do. In most stages though I've noticed Lotto doing a good job for Greipel and he then seems to mess it up.
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 07-07-2016 23:23
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The thing I feel is that as cool as it would be PCM isn't FM, we can't have mental stats to account for things, not just here but in many topics, so we have to to with how PCM works rather than RL rankings.
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT] Xero Racing
5x x5
2x x2
2x x2 |
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 08-07-2016 09:58
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Posts: 9099
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Dusen wrote:
I've been wondering, do you guys think that Kittel and Greipel maybe is paying a price for attending the Giro? I know they didn't ride the whole thing, but the difference between those three is that Cavendish has very few race days and haven't been riding the Giro, while Greipel and Kittel have.
I don't know how easy it is to find top form again so quickly again.
Hmmm I guess preperation is a huge factor, but in another way like you are pointing at. Rolf Aldag, kind of the mentor of Cavendish, told that the kryptical advantage of Cavendish is his track-training, and therefore his toughness is positioning and finding exactly the point when to launch the sprint.
Greipel and Kittel both have positioning problems, but also in a different manner.
Greipel just needs a good position, if his leadout launches a sprint he is nearly unbeatable. Without his leadout he fails positioning and seems like he doesn´t even bother sprinting (besides stage 1, where he tried to come in front and was really impressive). But he also lacks pace at some point, so no top-form for him for now, maybe a duty to the Giro.
Kittel looks like he´s placed pretty good (P5-10) constantly after stage 3, but then he just goes horribly too early. He was far too early on his win, but that was just because of his pure power. Otherwise he Sagan'd Coquard or Cavendish a decent leadout so far.
edit: https://pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread....st_1187377 interesting Post by Ian Russell to underline Kittels problems
Edited by Croatia14 on 08-07-2016 11:51
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| marcoplv95 |
Posted on 08-07-2016 16:03
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Nibali 55 MON please |
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| tobgunn123 |
Posted on 09-07-2016 15:00
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Under 23
Posts: 61
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Arberg27 wrote:
83: Cavendish (82acc)
82: Kittel (83acc), Greipel (80acc)
80: Bouhanni, Kristoff
79: Degenkolb, Démare, Sagan, Coquard
78: Viviani, McLay, Groenewegen, Modolo, Nizzolo, Ewan, Gaviria
77: Guardini, Theuns, Hofland, Laporte, Boasson Hagen, Matthews
Cavendish fastest top speed and Kittel fastest acc.
cav, 83 sprint and 82 acc? would be better opposite |
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| tobgunn123 |
Posted on 09-07-2016 15:03
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Under 23
Posts: 61
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Croatia14 wrote:
Dusen wrote:
I've been wondering, do you guys think that Kittel and Greipel maybe is paying a price for attending the Giro? I know they didn't ride the whole thing, but the difference between those three is that Cavendish has very few race days and haven't been riding the Giro, while Greipel and Kittel have.
I don't know how easy it is to find top form again so quickly again.
Hmmm I guess preperation is a huge factor, but in another way like you are pointing at. Rolf Aldag, kind of the mentor of Cavendish, told that the kryptical advantage of Cavendish is his track-training, and therefore his toughness is positioning and finding exactly the point when to launch the sprint.
Greipel and Kittel both have positioning problems, but also in a different manner.
Greipel just needs a good position, if his leadout launches a sprint he is nearly unbeatable. Without his leadout he fails positioning and seems like he doesn´t even bother sprinting (besides stage 1, where he tried to come in front and was really impressive). But he also lacks pace at some point, so no top-form for him for now, maybe a duty to the Giro.
Kittel looks like he´s placed pretty good (P5-10) constantly after stage 3, but then he just goes horribly too early. He was far too early on his win, but that was just because of his pure power. Otherwise he Sagan'd Coquard or Cavendish a decent leadout so far.
edit: https://pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread....st_1187377 interesting Post by Ian Russell to underline Kittels problems
agree that cav is better becuase of his track training (and the compitiosion) and do get better at positioning, but the biggest thing is his explosive, acc, and speed |
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 09-07-2016 15:04
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No Kittel has the fastest acceleration, but Cavendish is the best to running sprint.
Edited by Arberg27 on 09-07-2016 15:07
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 09-07-2016 15:04
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couldn't it be, that you're a bit biased on that?
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