|
The Difficult Topics
|
| Ollfardh |
Posted on 24-06-2016 10:49
|
World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
|
ringo182 wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
The plan currently on the table is to ditch Britain and then make the reforms to keep countries like Holland and Denmark on board. Not a single politician is talking about renegotiating with Britain. The only shot Britain has of staying in the EU is that your new PM will be elected on a ticket that decides to ignore this (non-binding) referendum and cancel the whole Brexit.
Which would be a terrible example of ditching the democracy principles and thus will not ever happen.
Democracy is overrated, UK proved it today and USA will prove it at the end of the year by electing Trump.
Yes, dictatorships are much better as they would eliminate the possibility of the population having their say as has happened in this election 
Much easier for the rich to control those pesky plebs.
Because there is no other option besides democracy or dictatorship?
What if the elected UK government just decided to stay in the EU without a referendum, would that have been undemocratic?
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
|
| |
|
|
| ringo182 |
Posted on 24-06-2016 10:52
|
Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
|
Ollfardh wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
The plan currently on the table is to ditch Britain and then make the reforms to keep countries like Holland and Denmark on board. Not a single politician is talking about renegotiating with Britain. The only shot Britain has of staying in the EU is that your new PM will be elected on a ticket that decides to ignore this (non-binding) referendum and cancel the whole Brexit.
Which would be a terrible example of ditching the democracy principles and thus will not ever happen.
Democracy is overrated, UK proved it today and USA will prove it at the end of the year by electing Trump.
Yes, dictatorships are much better as they would eliminate the possibility of the population having their say as has happened in this election
Much easier for the rich to control those pesky plebs.
Because there is no other option besides democracy or dictatorship?
What if the elected UK government just decided to stay in the EU without a referendum, would that have been undemocratic?
Yes, if the reason they were elected was because they promised a referendum.
Obviously democracy and dictatorships aren't the only systems. But you can't say democracy doesn't work simply because the majority don't agree with you. |
| |
|
|
| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 24-06-2016 10:59
|
World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
|
Ollfardh wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
The plan currently on the table is to ditch Britain and then make the reforms to keep countries like Holland and Denmark on board. Not a single politician is talking about renegotiating with Britain. The only shot Britain has of staying in the EU is that your new PM will be elected on a ticket that decides to ignore this (non-binding) referendum and cancel the whole Brexit.
Which would be a terrible example of ditching the democracy principles and thus will not ever happen.
Democracy is overrated, UK proved it today and USA will prove it at the end of the year by electing Trump.
Sieg He*l to that!
|
| |
|
|
| Ollfardh |
Posted on 24-06-2016 10:59
|
World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
|
I'm saying democracy doesn't work because it gives people who don't know what they are talking about the right to vote. A friend of mine posted this on Facebook, if people are allowed to vote believing this information, democracy doesn't work. If a party is allowed to influence the vote by spreading outright lies, democracy does not work.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
|
| |
|
|
| cunego59 |
Posted on 24-06-2016 11:06
|
Team Manager
Posts: 6508
Joined: 14-09-2008
PCM$: 1090.00
|
ringo182 wrote:
Obviously democracy and dictatorships aren't the only systems. But you can't say democracy doesn't work simply because the majority don't agree with you.
Of course you can. At least depending on your definition of "working". It works if you mean that majorities have some power to decide things based on their current mood. It doesn't necessarily works if you mean that it achieves the best outcome for the most people.
And you may think it's arrogant to say that the people don't know what's best for them, and maybe it is. But I still think it's true in at least many cases. Does that mean I'm against democracy? I don't know. I've thought a lot about that, I think that a technocracy or even a dictatorship with a "good" dictator in theory would be the best of the systems we currently know. But there's so much potential for misuse that it's also very dangerous.
|
| |
|
|
| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 11:22
|
Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
|
|
| IP: None |
|
|
| ringo182 |
Posted on 24-06-2016 11:14
|
Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
|
Ollfardh wrote:
I'm saying democracy doesn't work because it gives people who don't know what they are talking about the right to vote. A friend of mine posted this on Facebook, if people are allowed to vote believing this information, democracy doesn't work. If a party is allowed to influence the vote by spreading outright lies, democracy does not work.
It's better to let people make up their own mind even if the information provided is biased, than for the decision to be made for them by unelected powers, such as the EU
The remain campaign was just as guilty of making up "facts" as the leave campaign.
As I said, I didn't vote as neither side convinced me. However you can't call the British people stupid for exercising their democratic right to say they are not happy with the EU and change is needed. |
| |
|
|
| cio93 |
Posted on 24-06-2016 11:20
|
World Champion
Posts: 10845
Joined: 29-10-2007
PCM$: 500.00
|
cunego59 wrote:
And you may think it's arrogant to say that the people don't know what's best for them, and maybe it is. But I still think it's true in at least many cases. Does that mean I'm against democracy? I don't know. I've thought a lot about that, I think that a technocracy or even a dictatorship with a "good" dictator in theory would be the best of the systems we currently know. But there's so much potential for misuse that it's also very dangerous.
I am starting to reach this position too lately and I'm happy to see that I am not alone since it's very scary that current events force me to rethink this very fundamental stance on politics.
Of course that can only be a theoretical thought, but now that in my view the human evolution has stopped after millions of years and we're going backwards again...it's depressing times.
|
| |
|
|
| ringo182 |
Posted on 24-06-2016 11:26
|
Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
|
cio93 wrote:
cunego59 wrote:
And you may think it's arrogant to say that the people don't know what's best for them, and maybe it is. But I still think it's true in at least many cases. Does that mean I'm against democracy? I don't know. I've thought a lot about that, I think that a technocracy or even a dictatorship with a "good" dictator in theory would be the best of the systems we currently know. But there's so much potential for misuse that it's also very dangerous.
I am starting to reach this position too lately and I'm happy to see that I am not alone since it's very scary that current events force me to rethink this very fundamental stance on politics.
Of course that can only be a theoretical thought, but now that in my view the human evolution has stopped after millions of years and we're going backwards again...it's depressing times.
The only people taking us backwards are those who believe that everyone isn't equal and some don't deserve a vote as they don't have the education, because they were failed by the social and education systems created by the ruling powers who now think they shouldn't vote because they haven't been educated. |
| |
|
|
| cunego59 |
Posted on 24-06-2016 11:34
|
Team Manager
Posts: 6508
Joined: 14-09-2008
PCM$: 1090.00
|
ringo182 wrote:
The only people taking us backwards are those who believe that everyone isn't equal and some don't deserve a vote as they don't have the education, because they were failed by the social and education systems created by the ruling powers who now think they shouldn't vote because they haven't been educated.
To make that clear: I don't think that only some should have a vote in whatever scenario. I agree that such a separation would be terrible. When I write that I'm against referendums, that includes everyone.
Also, when I say that people tend to make, oversimplified, the "wrong decisions", that includes people of all educations. Education is probably a factor as well, but mostly it's an issue of common sense and, more importantly, making an effort to actually inform yourself and identify obviously biased and rigged information in the process.
|
| |
|
|
| Strydz |
Posted on 24-06-2016 11:36
|
Team Leader
Posts: 5894
Joined: 02-08-2011
PCM$: 1625.00
|
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
I would not call them idiots from position of guy from another country. They have right to decide about their country, at least in democracy. I said few months ago, that democracy is in blind spot nowadays, imo we will see the shifts into more autocratic regimes in the future...
I don't think the people really understand what type of democracy they have, just like in my country Britian doesn't have a direct democracy we have a representative democracy, it means we elect people to make the decisions on our behalf which makes sense as the complexity of the major issues dictate that a large proportion of the electorate won't be well informed to make the choices, the Brexit vote has really shown this to be true. Cameron really was a fool to take this to a referendum
Hells 500 Crew and 6 x Everester
Don Rd Launching Place
Melbourne Hill Rd Warrandyte
Colby Drive Belgrave South
William Rd The Patch
David Hill Rd Monbulk
Lakeside Drive Emerald
https://www.everesting.cc/hall-of-fame/ |
| |
|
|
| Croatia14 |
Posted on 24-06-2016 12:05
|
Directeur Sportif
Posts: 9099
Joined: 13-03-2013
PCM$: 2100.00
|
Since today I have less faith in british politics than in an England team in a penalty shootout. And that is almost under 0...
|
| |
|
|
| ryant |
Posted on 24-06-2016 12:19
|
Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2322
Joined: 15-08-2012
PCM$: 200.00
|
The problem in the EU is the inclusion of eastern European countries and Greece and the likes. Money has come out of the EU to support these failing economies.
The main problem with the EU is that they are so inflexible, Cameron promised a 'reformed' EU, yet came back with little in Feb. Its clear that the EU will not change, and that is one of the reason why people voted out.
 John St Ledger in Team Bunzl-Centrica and Team U25Red Bull Driver in RFactor
|
| |
|
|
| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 24-06-2016 12:33
|
World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
|
Strydz wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
I would not call them idiots from position of guy from another country. They have right to decide about their country, at least in democracy. I said few months ago, that democracy is in blind spot nowadays, imo we will see the shifts into more autocratic regimes in the future...
I don't think the people really understand what type of democracy they have, just like in my country Britian doesn't have a direct democracy we have a representative democracy, it means we elect people to make the decisions on our behalf which makes sense as the complexity of the major issues dictate that a large proportion of the electorate won't be well informed to make the choices, the Brexit vote has really shown this to be true. Cameron really was a fool to take this to a referendum
Even in representative democracy, you can (and should) establish a referendum in the most important cases. Even more when you are voted because you had that in your political programme, which is the case here.
What you are all basically saying is that people in general are too stupid to be responsible for themselves. While that is pretty true in lot of cases, why not let people face the consequences of their actions? How they will learn to be interested in outcomes of their actions, if not through that?
|
| |
|
|
| Ollfardh |
Posted on 24-06-2016 12:36
|
World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
|
ringo182 wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
I'm saying democracy doesn't work because it gives people who don't know what they are talking about the right to vote. A friend of mine posted this on Facebook, if people are allowed to vote believing this information, democracy doesn't work. If a party is allowed to influence the vote by spreading outright lies, democracy does not work.
It's better to let people make up their own mind even if the information provided is biased, than for the decision to be made for them by unelected powers, such as the EU
The remain campaign was just as guilty of making up "facts" as the leave campaign.
As I said, I didn't vote as neither side convinced me. However you can't call the British people stupid for exercising their democratic right to say they are not happy with the EU and change is needed.
The British people are stupid for voting the way they voted.
And calling the EU unelected and undemocratic pretty much sums up my point of uneducated voters. The members of the EU parliament are directly elected, you can vote for them directly, if he gets enough votes, he gets a seat. The Commissioners of each country are elected by the country's national government, which again, you have elected. The president and other top functions are elected by the members of the parliament, of which you have elected the UK section. Furthermore, you can be sure that the UK has (de facto) veto power when it comes to the President.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
|
| |
|
|
| ringo182 |
Posted on 24-06-2016 12:45
|
Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
|
Ollfardh wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
I'm saying democracy doesn't work because it gives people who don't know what they are talking about the right to vote. A friend of mine posted this on Facebook, if people are allowed to vote believing this information, democracy doesn't work. If a party is allowed to influence the vote by spreading outright lies, democracy does not work.
It's better to let people make up their own mind even if the information provided is biased, than for the decision to be made for them by unelected powers, such as the EU
The remain campaign was just as guilty of making up "facts" as the leave campaign.
As I said, I didn't vote as neither side convinced me. However you can't call the British people stupid for exercising their democratic right to say they are not happy with the EU and change is needed.
The British people are stupid for voting the way they voted.
And calling the EU unelected and undemocratic pretty much sums up my point of uneducated voters. The members of the EU parliament are directly elected, you can vote for them directly, if he gets enough votes, he gets a seat. The Commissioners of each country are elected by the country's national government, which again, you have elected. The president and other top functions are elected by the members of the parliament, of which you have elected the UK section. Furthermore, you can be sure that the UK has (de facto) veto power when it comes to the President.
Can I ask why you care so much? If Britain leaving is going to be so bad for Britain then why are you so bitter about the decision? |
| |
|
|
| Ollfardh |
Posted on 24-06-2016 12:49
|
World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
|
ringo182 wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
I'm saying democracy doesn't work because it gives people who don't know what they are talking about the right to vote. A friend of mine posted this on Facebook, if people are allowed to vote believing this information, democracy doesn't work. If a party is allowed to influence the vote by spreading outright lies, democracy does not work.
It's better to let people make up their own mind even if the information provided is biased, than for the decision to be made for them by unelected powers, such as the EU
The remain campaign was just as guilty of making up "facts" as the leave campaign.
As I said, I didn't vote as neither side convinced me. However you can't call the British people stupid for exercising their democratic right to say they are not happy with the EU and change is needed.
The British people are stupid for voting the way they voted.
And calling the EU unelected and undemocratic pretty much sums up my point of uneducated voters. The members of the EU parliament are directly elected, you can vote for them directly, if he gets enough votes, he gets a seat. The Commissioners of each country are elected by the country's national government, which again, you have elected. The president and other top functions are elected by the members of the parliament, of which you have elected the UK section. Furthermore, you can be sure that the UK has (de facto) veto power when it comes to the President.
Can I ask why you care so much? If Britain leaving is going to be so bad for Britain then why are you so bitter about the decision?
Because it's bad for the rest of the EU as well (although I still think Britain will be off worse). As I said before, no one wins with this result.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
|
| |
|
|
| Selwink |
Posted on 24-06-2016 13:21
|
Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8856
Joined: 17-05-2012
PCM$: 200.00
|
Ollfardh wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
I'm saying democracy doesn't work because it gives people who don't know what they are talking about the right to vote. A friend of mine posted this on Facebook, if people are allowed to vote believing this information, democracy doesn't work. If a party is allowed to influence the vote by spreading outright lies, democracy does not work.
It's better to let people make up their own mind even if the information provided is biased, than for the decision to be made for them by unelected powers, such as the EU
The remain campaign was just as guilty of making up "facts" as the leave campaign.
As I said, I didn't vote as neither side convinced me. However you can't call the British people stupid for exercising their democratic right to say they are not happy with the EU and change is needed.
The British people are stupid for voting the way they voted.
And calling the EU unelected and undemocratic pretty much sums up my point of uneducated voters. The members of the EU parliament are directly elected, you can vote for them directly, if he gets enough votes, he gets a seat. The Commissioners of each country are elected by the country's national government, which again, you have elected. The president and other top functions are elected by the members of the parliament, of which you have elected the UK section. Furthermore, you can be sure that the UK has (de facto) veto power when it comes to the President.
Although the EU is certainly not a dictatorship, I am highly reluctant to call it fully democratic. The EU does not have the clear separation of powers, which a democracy should have.
My biggest problem though is in the European Parliament. I am of the belief that it does not represent the people of Europe, but rather the peoples. If it should represent the people of Europe, then why can I only choose for a candidate who happens to come from a few thousand square kilometers. If the parliament represents a Union, then let me choose someone from the Union.
Furthermore, the power of the EP is very limited compared to the 6 other institutions, meaning that the one thing that's chosen immediately is pretty much the least powerful.
For a moment I thought of mentioning the low turnout as an example of lack of democracy as well, but decided against it as it's ultimately the fault of those who don't vote, but one has to wonder why the turnout is so low. To me, the EU seems so distant from reality and I get why people (though wrongly) call it undemocratic, and as such the Eu should seriously start to rethink about itself and come up with ways of improving it instead of intimidating those who go against its will.
|
| |
|
|
| Atlantius |
Posted on 24-06-2016 13:29
|
Team Leader
Posts: 6795
Joined: 21-07-2010
PCM$: 200.00
|
cio93 wrote:
cunego59 wrote:
And you may think it's arrogant to say that the people don't know what's best for them, and maybe it is. But I still think it's true in at least many cases. Does that mean I'm against democracy? I don't know. I've thought a lot about that, I think that a technocracy or even a dictatorship with a "good" dictator in theory would be the best of the systems we currently know. But there's so much potential for misuse that it's also very dangerous.
I am starting to reach this position too lately and I'm happy to see that I am not alone since it's very scary that current events force me to rethink this very fundamental stance on politics.
Of course that can only be a theoretical thought, but now that in my view the human evolution has stopped after millions of years and we're going backwards again...it's depressing times.
Add me to that list. I've said for many years that the only problem with dictatorship is that there probably only is 1 person born in the world each century actually suited for the task...
With modern media it has become (too?) easy for the average Joe to get his/her voice herd. Combined with the need/want for easy and quick one liners we have democracy's cryptonite.
I think I'll just let Black Sabbath/Dio sum up the problem today: When you listen to fools, the mob rules.
|
| |
|
|
| ringo182 |
Posted on 24-06-2016 13:33
|
Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
|
Atlantius wrote:
cio93 wrote:
cunego59 wrote:
And you may think it's arrogant to say that the people don't know what's best for them, and maybe it is. But I still think it's true in at least many cases. Does that mean I'm against democracy? I don't know. I've thought a lot about that, I think that a technocracy or even a dictatorship with a "good" dictator in theory would be the best of the systems we currently know. But there's so much potential for misuse that it's also very dangerous.
I am starting to reach this position too lately and I'm happy to see that I am not alone since it's very scary that current events force me to rethink this very fundamental stance on politics.
Of course that can only be a theoretical thought, but now that in my view the human evolution has stopped after millions of years and we're going backwards again...it's depressing times.
Add me to that list. I've said for many years that the only problem with dictatorship is that there probably only is 1 person born in the world each century actually suited for the task...
With modern media it has become (too?) easy for the average Joe to get his/her voice herd. Combined with the need/want for easy and quick one liners we have democracy's cryptonite.
I think I'll just let Black Sabbath/Dio sum up the problem today: When you listen to fools, the mob rules.
So you're complaining about politics being dumbed down by the media using "quick and easy one liners" by quoting a Black Sabbath song |
| |
|
|
| Dippofix |
Posted on 24-06-2016 13:40
|
Classics Specialist
Posts: 3904
Joined: 29-01-2013
PCM$: 300.00
|
ringo182 wrote:
Atlantius wrote:
cio93 wrote:
cunego59 wrote:
And you may think it's arrogant to say that the people don't know what's best for them, and maybe it is. But I still think it's true in at least many cases. Does that mean I'm against democracy? I don't know. I've thought a lot about that, I think that a technocracy or even a dictatorship with a "good" dictator in theory would be the best of the systems we currently know. But there's so much potential for misuse that it's also very dangerous.
I am starting to reach this position too lately and I'm happy to see that I am not alone since it's very scary that current events force me to rethink this very fundamental stance on politics.
Of course that can only be a theoretical thought, but now that in my view the human evolution has stopped after millions of years and we're going backwards again...it's depressing times.
Add me to that list. I've said for many years that the only problem with dictatorship is that there probably only is 1 person born in the world each century actually suited for the task...
With modern media it has become (too?) easy for the average Joe to get his/her voice herd. Combined with the need/want for easy and quick one liners we have democracy's cryptonite.
I think I'll just let Black Sabbath/Dio sum up the problem today: When you listen to fools, the mob rules.
So you're complaining about politics being dumbed down by the media using "quick and easy one liners" by quoting a Black Sabbath song
Black Sabbath > Nigel Farage
|
| |
|
