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Discussion about new hill/mnt stat
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| cio93 |
Posted on 20-06-2016 15:46
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World Champion
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Also what does this mean for sprinters getting over hills?
As far as I understand it, for the first 150 km of an up-and-down stage ending in a flat sprint, Theo Bos with 60/60 mo/hil will spend as much energy as a 60/74 John Degenkolb on any incline??
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| Compello |
Posted on 20-06-2016 15:54
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Amateur
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As long as the effort is 70 or less, it seems so yes. |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 20-06-2016 16:03
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This seems very strange and i have to test it more, but i am afraid that it can turn out as another ridiculously implemented and not thought over mechanic. Great job Cyanide, any other company would hardly manage to make their game worst every year...
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| cio93 |
Posted on 20-06-2016 16:12
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So to keep the different sprinter types realistic, we have to adjust the MO values to somewhat reflect the HIL differences, thus screwing the system when it comes to their ability to survive GT mountain stages or the comparison to climbing domestiques/talents?
One thing is pretty clear to me: if this stays in the game and has the effects I fear it might, we have to skip this edition for the ManGame.
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| Lachi |
Posted on 20-06-2016 16:32
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Lamba wrote:
Compello wrote:
My concern though, is that the A.I won't do the same, and I will end up competing against a load of stage race riders that I can very easily beat.
Ah right. Yeah. You might be right on that. 
I think most of the beta testing was about the AI in regard of the new mountain/hill stats. So hopefully they at least tried to adjust the AI accordingly. |
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| Christer |
Posted on 20-06-2016 16:33
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From my experience with the new system, results has generally been as expected or similar to what one would expect to see in previous versions. Sprinters generally manages the time limit and weak Hill Sprinters gets dropped on hills in the late part of the more hilly races when the pace gets higher. The peloton never seems to ride on mountain stat effort range in the later stage, so Bos shouldn't outperform Degenkolb unless form and race day condition (daily form) is going strongly in favor of Bos. But yes, in the early parts of a hilly stage, they will probably expend roughly the same.
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| Lachi |
Posted on 20-06-2016 16:48
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cio93 wrote:
So to keep the different sprinter types realistic, we have to adjust the MO values to somewhat reflect the HIL differences, thus screwing the system when it comes to their ability to survive GT mountain stages or the comparison to climbing domestiques/talents?
I don't understand this. Are there sprinters who can climb well on GT stages but not well on hilly stages?
The new system is not that complicated:
- How long can a rider survive climbing at lower speed = MO stat
- How long can a rider survive climbing at faster speed = HIL stat
The old system was really stupid having the same ratio for all climbs in the stage.
Of course database maker have to adjust their matrix but they should check the matrix before releasing a database anyway.
Edited by Lachi on 20-06-2016 16:51
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| matt17br |
Posted on 20-06-2016 16:49
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cio93 wrote:
Also what does this mean for sprinters getting over hills?
As far as I understand it, for the first 150 km of an up-and-down stage ending in a flat sprint, Theo Bos with 60/60 mo/hil will spend as much energy as a 60/74 John Degenkolb on any incline??
I don't really understand why you'd think so, since it's not like the new system won't take into account the actual stats of the riders in mo and hi.
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| lukaas |
Posted on 20-06-2016 17:00
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This seems very confusing to me. If I have a 85 Mon and 75 Hill rider, is it better for me going with an effort of 70 instead of 75? |
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| Compello |
Posted on 20-06-2016 17:10
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lukaas wrote:
This seems very confusing to me. If I have a 85 Mon and 75 Hill rider, is it better for me going with an effort of 70 instead of 75?
Yes. 75 will still be very good with that high mon, but 70 will use purely mountain stat. |
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Posted on 22-11-2024 17:51
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| togo95 |
Posted on 20-06-2016 17:16
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According to the information we have, you can't say so absolutely. If you are up against a rider with mo 85 and hil 65 (and otherwise the same), then you would have bigger advantage over him at the effort of 75 rather than 70.
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| Compello |
Posted on 20-06-2016 17:18
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togo95 wrote:
According to the information we have, you can't say so absolutely. If you are up against a rider with mo 85 and hil 65 (and otherwise the same), then you would have bigger advantage over him at the effort of 75 rather than 70.
Yes, in that single scenario, higher dot would be better. But in the was majority of cases, as most good climbers have higher hill than 75, effort at 70 will be better for him. |
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| Lachi |
Posted on 20-06-2016 17:20
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lukaas wrote:
This seems very confusing to me. If I have a 85 Mon and 75 Hill rider, is it better for me going with an effort of 70 instead of 75?
effort 70 = 100% MO
effort 90 = 100% HIL
So in your example of the 85/75 rider: The higher the effort is, the less powerful he will be.
I made a small list to illustrate it (but this list is not accurate):
| effort | stat | | 70 | 85 | | 72 | 84 | | 74 | 83 | | 76 | 82 | | 78 | 81 | | 80 | 80 | | 82 | 79 | | 84 | 78 | | 86 | 77 | | 88 | 76 | | 90 | 75 |
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| TschuuX |
Posted on 20-06-2016 17:49
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Lachi wrote:
lukaas wrote:
This seems very confusing to me. If I have a 85 Mon and 75 Hill rider, is it better for me going with an effort of 70 instead of 75?
effort 70 = 100% MO
effort 90 = 100% HIL
So in your example of the 85/75 rider: The higher the effort is, the less powerful he will be.
I made a small list to illustrate it (but this list is not accurate):
| effort | stat | | 70 | 85 | | 72 | 84 | | 74 | 83 | | 76 | 82 | | 78 | 81 | | 80 | 80 | | 82 | 79 | | 84 | 78 | | 86 | 77 | | 88 | 76 | | 90 | 75 |
As far as i understand it the rider dont become slower whith higher effort.
Its more like the way he climb up the mountain gets less effective.
If i have a rider with 85 Mountain and 70 Hill the most effective way to climb the mounten would be at 70 Dot. Because i use the full power of the stat and i only lose a bit energy. By increasing the effort i become faster but i also become less efficient. I lose a lot more energie but i just get a little bit faster.
As a puncheur its the opposit. When i use higher effort i become a lot faster but i just lose RELATIVE to the stage rider, less energie.
What does that mean:
on long climbs the puncheur need to use lower dot because he shouldnt blow up before the top of the climb. That meas he uses his stats uneffective. On shorter climbs he could use higher effort and he uses his power in a more efficient way.
You can see it like that:
A Stage Rider has a very high speed at the start with 70 Effort on dot
If he wants to ride faster he need to consume more power (relative to the puncheur)
A puncheur is realative slow with 70 effort. But if he wants to ride faster he just consume less Energie (relative to the stage rider.)
So both need more energie with a higher effort but the stage rider needs more than a puncheur. |
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| Compello |
Posted on 20-06-2016 17:57
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Yes, and this is why I have become more positive to this change. I was very sceptical in the start, but now I think it is a much more realistic way to play the game.
I'm just afraid of the A.I not developing riders to be good in this new way of dividing between hill/mountain. I'm afraid that after something like 3-4 seasons you'll race against loads of young riders with too low hill stats to be a good competition, and you'll win every mountain finish easily.
I'm also a little concerned about having to focus more on the hill stat in 1-week races like Dauphine and Paris-Nice, as there are just too few stages for the REC stat to become valuable enough, and too few long climbs. |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 20-06-2016 18:14
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Okay, so i am completely lost in these texts, have you some guide for idiots? 
So now it does not matter if i ride 30km long mountain or 2kms long hill for which stat is used, but it depends solely on intensity of effort? I dont get it, it does not make sense to me.
And is it only for dot, or all types of efforts?
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| Thatguyeveryonehates |
Posted on 20-06-2016 18:36
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Okay, so i am completely lost in these texts, have you some guide for idiots?
So now it does not matter if i ride 30km long mountain or 2kms long hill for which stat is used, but it depends solely on intensity of effort? I dont get it, it does not make sense to me.
And is it only for dot, or all types of efforts?
yes depends only on the effort % he is making
remember that if you set him to hold position at for example 85% he is not actually doing 85% of his max effort at all times. you are telling him to use whatever is needed to hold position without going over 85.
dot just means do exactly this percentage ignoring what the rest of the group is doing |
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| Lachi |
Posted on 20-06-2016 19:05
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TschuuX wrote:
As far as i understand it the rider dont become slower whith higher effort.
I did not mention speed at all.
The numbers in my post are effort and the corresponding stat of the rider.
I used an example rider which has 85 MO + 75 HIL. The climbing ability of this rider will decrease from 85 to 75 when raising the effort.
In the old games, the climbing ability was the same for the whole stage (but depending on an invisible MO/HIL ratio), now it varies based on effort. |
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| sierramike |
Posted on 21-06-2016 01:00
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I can understand where there coming from with this change,but now I need mountain stat in ronde van Vlaanderen & such ...
In pcm 15 I won TdF with my nothern classic guy w/o any cob stage in it .And won Vuelta with my sprinter on hard,so won't be any surprise now.
From the first few days I get the impression it's gonna get even wierder-easier.
I was shocked first race the game wanting me to relay at 98% effort.
As usual things will get more freaky some years in the game when stats will be more min/max then first year.
Edited by sierramike on 21-06-2016 01:07
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| Dee-Jay |
Posted on 21-06-2016 12:25
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Not had chance to play the game yet, but this has the potential to be the best game engine change in years, way more realistic than the old system IMHO.
For the concerns about the Mountain stat becoming important in Flanders, wouldn't keeping a high pace up the short climbs wreck the stage racers? This is correct as the climbs are high intensity, low duration - not what climbers are built for.
What Lachi said is right - database rider stats crucial. |
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