|
Criterium du Dauphiné 2016
|
| Riis123 |
Posted on 13-06-2016 13:07
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5075
Joined: 07-08-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
Whatever |
| |
|
|
| Strydz |
Posted on 13-06-2016 13:49
|
Team Leader
Posts: 5894
Joined: 02-08-2011
PCM$: 1625.00
|
Armstrong won the TDF? Hmmm That's news to me as I can't find him in the record books as the winner of those races. Just because there is no assigned winner doesn't automatically make Armstrong the winner.
I will help you out with the simple line of, ARMSTRONG NEVER WON THE TOUR
Hells 500 Crew and 6 x Everester
Don Rd Launching Place
Melbourne Hill Rd Warrandyte
Colby Drive Belgrave South
William Rd The Patch
David Hill Rd Monbulk
Lakeside Drive Emerald
https://www.everesting.cc/hall-of-fame/ |
| |
|
|
| Forever the Best |
Posted on 13-06-2016 13:49
|
Classics Specialist
Posts: 3803
Joined: 27-06-2014
PCM$: 400.00
|
Riis123 wrote:
Its slightly different cases since they actually had a winner for the 2 GT's where Contador was stripped, but the winner from 1999-2005 is blank and therefore I consider Armstrong to have won them since I don't subscribe to the 'no winner' thing. Its a grey area and I suppose very subjective again. Schleck and Scarponi don't even think they won these GTs |
| |
|
|
| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 22:56
|
Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
|
|
| IP: None |
|
|
| Strydz |
Posted on 13-06-2016 13:57
|
Team Leader
Posts: 5894
Joined: 02-08-2011
PCM$: 1625.00
|
The Schleck Fan wrote:
Riis123 wrote:
Its slightly different cases since they actually had a winner for the 2 GT's where Contador was stripped, but the winner from 1999-2005 is blank and therefore I consider Armstrong to have won them since I don't subscribe to the 'no winner' thing. Its a grey area and I suppose very subjective again. Schleck and Scarponi don't even think they won these GTs
Well the record books say different don't they
Hells 500 Crew and 6 x Everester
Don Rd Launching Place
Melbourne Hill Rd Warrandyte
Colby Drive Belgrave South
William Rd The Patch
David Hill Rd Monbulk
Lakeside Drive Emerald
https://www.everesting.cc/hall-of-fame/ |
| |
|
|
| Forever the Best |
Posted on 13-06-2016 14:27
|
Classics Specialist
Posts: 3803
Joined: 27-06-2014
PCM$: 400.00
|
Strydz wrote:
The Schleck Fan wrote:
Riis123 wrote:
Its slightly different cases since they actually had a winner for the 2 GT's where Contador was stripped, but the winner from 1999-2005 is blank and therefore I consider Armstrong to have won them since I don't subscribe to the 'no winner' thing. Its a grey area and I suppose very subjective again. Schleck and Scarponi don't even think they won these GTs
Well the record books say different don't they It was more of an answer to Riis.But I think Contador won 9 GTs and Armstrong won 7 TDFs.You can disagree but that is my opinion.Nothing feels like standing in the top step of the podium, celebrating in front of thousands of fans. |
| |
|
|
| Strydz |
Posted on 13-06-2016 15:06
|
Team Leader
Posts: 5894
Joined: 02-08-2011
PCM$: 1625.00
|
The Schleck Fan wrote:
Strydz wrote:
The Schleck Fan wrote:
Riis123 wrote:
Its slightly different cases since they actually had a winner for the 2 GT's where Contador was stripped, but the winner from 1999-2005 is blank and therefore I consider Armstrong to have won them since I don't subscribe to the 'no winner' thing. Its a grey area and I suppose very subjective again. Schleck and Scarponi don't even think they won these GTs
Well the record books say different don't they It was more of an answer to Riis.But I think Contador won 9 GTs and Armstrong won 7 TDFs.You can disagree but that is my opinion.Nothing feels like standing in the top step of the podium, celebrating in front of thousands of fans.
Well I would rather go by the rule book than personal opinion
Also if I was standing on the top step of the podium having "won" by illegal means then I know I wouldn't of won, I don't understand how anyone could live with themselves
Hells 500 Crew and 6 x Everester
Don Rd Launching Place
Melbourne Hill Rd Warrandyte
Colby Drive Belgrave South
William Rd The Patch
David Hill Rd Monbulk
Lakeside Drive Emerald
https://www.everesting.cc/hall-of-fame/ |
| |
|
|
| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 13-06-2016 15:46
|
World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
|
Ian Butler wrote:
Riis123 wrote:
Ian Butler wrote:
Arberg27 wrote:
You never know who will win before the race is finished. Giro this year is a good example of it. That said, there is no doubt that only crash can stop Froome/Armstrong/Indurain/Hinault/Merckx/Anquetil.
Mentioning Froome (and Armstrong) in one breath along with giants like Hinault and Merckx. Hilarious 
Thanks for brightening up this place every time again, arberg. You have the art of trolling down to perfection 
Armstrong was the biggest Tour rider ever. 7 in a row in the hardest race to win on earth. I think he deserves to be mentioned in the same breath with Hinault and Merckx. 
Not even close.
Armstrong was a TDF monster. End of the line.
Merckx, Hinault... were so much more. On so many different terrain etc. Classics, WC, NC, other GTs, monuments, other stage races...
This!
Even Sagan is already better cyclist great overall than Armstrong. Not even mentioning that this horrible piece of human shit should never be glorified...
|
| |
|
|
| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 13-06-2016 15:48
|
World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
|
Riis123 wrote:
Its slightly different cases since they actually had a winner for the 2 GT's where Contador was stripped, but the winner from 1999-2005 is blank and therefore I consider Armstrong to have won them since I don't subscribe to the 'no winner' thing. Its a grey area and I suppose very subjective again.
Armstrong has 0 GT wins, that is pretty shite.
Moral integrity of some people here is close to mud.
|
| |
|
|
| Martial1 |
Posted on 13-06-2016 16:25
|
Neo-Pro
Posts: 388
Joined: 30-04-2014
PCM$: 200.00
|
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Riis123 wrote:
Its slightly different cases since they actually had a winner for the 2 GT's where Contador was stripped, but the winner from 1999-2005 is blank and therefore I consider Armstrong to have won them since I don't subscribe to the 'no winner' thing. Its a grey area and I suppose very subjective again.
Armstrong has 0 GT wins, that is pretty shite.
Moral integrity of some people here is close to mud.
Since when does the UCI's decision to strip a title have any moral authority? Admitted doper and 60% man Bjarne Riis still has his tour title. No way that makes him better than Armstrong. |
| |
|
|
| Riis123 |
Posted on 13-06-2016 16:35
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5075
Joined: 07-08-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Riis123 wrote:
Its slightly different cases since they actually had a winner for the 2 GT's where Contador was stripped, but the winner from 1999-2005 is blank and therefore I consider Armstrong to have won them since I don't subscribe to the 'no winner' thing. Its a grey area and I suppose very subjective again.
Armstrong has 0 GT wins, that is pretty shite.
Moral integrity of some people here is close to mud.
Are you really accusing me of having a moral integrity close to mud since I consider Armstrong a 7 time TdF-winner? That seems a little harsh. I think many people do and I won't forgot how he 6 out of 7 absolutely dominated and demolished the opposition, no matter if ASO has taken his titles or not. |
| |
|
|
| ringo182 |
Posted on 13-06-2016 16:42
|
Classics Specialist
Posts: 3472
Joined: 03-01-2008
PCM$: 1348.00
|
Armstrong was on drugs. But so was every single one of his competitors. Everyone was cheating and he was the best of them. I bet if they really wanted to look into it the top 10 of every grand tour throughout the 90's and early 2000's would be wiped from the record books.
This whole discussion is fairly pointless as not only is it based upon opinion but also on accusations and allegations that it's impossible to confirm or refute. |
| |
|
|
| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 13-06-2016 16:52
|
World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
|
Riis123 wrote:
Are you really accusing me of having a moral integrity close to mud since I consider Armstrong a 7 time TdF-winner?
Yes.
Because you value his cycling benefits over him being a biggest example of human waste.
I dont care how somebody ride a damn bike, when he threaten people and makes his living of lies. As i said, whoever is looking for positives on this piece of crap, has his values sorted wrong.
|
| |
|
|
| Arberg27 |
Posted on 13-06-2016 17:16
|
Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
Joined: 21-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
The Schleck Fan wrote:
Strydz wrote:
The Schleck Fan wrote:
Riis123 wrote:
Its slightly different cases since they actually had a winner for the 2 GT's where Contador was stripped, but the winner from 1999-2005 is blank and therefore I consider Armstrong to have won them since I don't subscribe to the 'no winner' thing. Its a grey area and I suppose very subjective again. Schleck and Scarponi don't even think they won these GTs
Well the record books say different don't they It was more of an answer to Riis.But I think Contador won 9 GTs and Armstrong won 7 TDFs.You can disagree but that is my opinion.Nothing feels like standing in the top step of the podium, celebrating in front of thousands of fans.
There is a difference between winning when you are the only being taken for doping and when all is taken for doping. Armstrong won TDF 7 times in a row and Contador won TDF 0 times . |
| |
|
|
| Stromeon |
Posted on 13-06-2016 17:21
|
Classics Specialist
Posts: 3507
Joined: 06-10-2012
PCM$: 200.00
|
I very strongly dislike Armstrong, and he is one of the worst things to have happened to this sport. But it seems bizarre to me that one would follow the UCI in dictating apparently who 'won' races just because they happened to catch some people and miss others in their scattergun doping controls. If you believe that nobody won the 1999-2005 Tours de France (a concept that you can have all these riders competing in a race and nobody actually wins is one I haven't wrapped my head around yet), who do you think won the 1996 Tour for instance? Riis had his win stripped and then re-instated, didn't he?
What about the 2005 Vuelta? Heras had his win stripped and given to Menchov, before then they decided actually no, Heras was the winner after all. Is Heras the winner because he won? Or is Menchov the winner because somebody decided that Heras wasn't the winner? Or is nobody the winner because, well screw logic? Or is Menchov in 2nd place because he finished second? Or should he not be because he was caught, but not stripped of that particular win, but he's just as bad as Heras because he's done the same thing? Was Heras first in the 2004 Vuelta (like he doped for the 2005 Vuelta but not the 2004 Vuelta? Fat chance...)? Does that mean he doesn't deserve to win the 2004 Vuelta? Taking the position that you didn't win a race if you get stripped of it is such a slippery slope, as demonstrated above, that it's pretty untenable.
A simplified scenario: Riders A, B and C finish on the podium in that order and Rider A has comprehensively won the race by completing it in a shorter time than Riders B and C. However, years later, they manage to catch Rider A whether it be through retrospective testing or because Rider D said that he was a bad lot or, because he was Russian, which appears to be a valid reason these days, and strip him of the win, but not Riders B and C, despite the fact that Riders B and C were almost definitely doped (this is cycling, after all).
Thus it is decided that poor old Rider A, who has simultaneously won and not won the race, a mind-boggling paradox a bit like a sort of Schrödinger's Cyclist, if you will, is apparently 'not the winner', but Riders B and C get off scot-free (I am NOT saying that I feel sorry for Armstrong at all, btw, he deserves the hate and vitriol). It's just such a random way of looking things that is so paradoxical it doesn't make sense.
|
| |
|
|
| Stromeon |
Posted on 13-06-2016 17:27
|
Classics Specialist
Posts: 3507
Joined: 06-10-2012
PCM$: 200.00
|
Arberg27 wrote:
There is a difference between winning when you are the only being taken for doping and when all is taken for doping. Armstrong won TDF 7 times in a row and Contador won TDF 0 times .
Lance himself would be proud of these double standards.
|
| |
|
|
| deek12345 |
Posted on 13-06-2016 17:34
|
Classics Specialist
Posts: 2761
Joined: 13-06-2009
PCM$: 360.00
|
Why the hell do you guys respond to the troll ,remember rule one of the Internet never feed a troll they just come back for more .
This site needs an ignore option |
| |
|
|
| Riis123 |
Posted on 13-06-2016 18:14
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5075
Joined: 07-08-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Riis123 wrote:
Are you really accusing me of having a moral integrity close to mud since I consider Armstrong a 7 time TdF-winner?
Yes.
Because you value his cycling benefits over him being a biggest example of human waste.
I dont care how somebody ride a damn bike, when he threaten people and makes his living of lies. As i said, whoever is looking for positives on this piece of crap, has his values sorted wrong.
Thats probably a little judgemental, don't you think? Its fine you disagree with me, but calling me out like that is pretty low, Avin.
Him being an asshole has nothing to do what he did on his bike and wether his should be the considered the winner of 7 TdF's. You are being way to emotional here. |
| |
|
|
| Strydz |
Posted on 13-06-2016 18:57
|
Team Leader
Posts: 5894
Joined: 02-08-2011
PCM$: 1625.00
|
ringo182 wrote:
Armstrong was on drugs. But so was every single one of his competitors. Everyone was cheating and he was the best of them.
Christophe Bassons competed against Armstrong and he was clean, he stood up and said NO and did it publicly. So if everyone was cheating and Armstrong was the best of them then where does Bassons fit into your calculations?
Hells 500 Crew and 6 x Everester
Don Rd Launching Place
Melbourne Hill Rd Warrandyte
Colby Drive Belgrave South
William Rd The Patch
David Hill Rd Monbulk
Lakeside Drive Emerald
https://www.everesting.cc/hall-of-fame/ |
| |
|
|
| Strydz |
Posted on 13-06-2016 19:04
|
Team Leader
Posts: 5894
Joined: 02-08-2011
PCM$: 1625.00
|
Riis123 wrote:
Him being an asshole has nothing to do what he did on his bike and wether his should be the considered the winner of 7 TdF's.
You are completely correct that him being an asshole shouldn't come into calculations when considering him the winner of 7 TDF's, the fact he was busted and admitted he doped in those TDF's and then had his titles stripped is what should be considered. This is why he didn't win 7 TDF's
Hells 500 Crew and 6 x Everester
Don Rd Launching Place
Melbourne Hill Rd Warrandyte
Colby Drive Belgrave South
William Rd The Patch
David Hill Rd Monbulk
Lakeside Drive Emerald
https://www.everesting.cc/hall-of-fame/ |
| |
|
|
| Strydz |
Posted on 13-06-2016 19:15
|
Team Leader
Posts: 5894
Joined: 02-08-2011
PCM$: 1625.00
|
Stromeon wrote:
A simplified scenario: Riders A, B and C finish on the podium in that order and Rider A has comprehensively won the race by completing it in a shorter time than Riders B and C. However, years later, they manage to catch Rider A whether it be through retrospective testing or because Rider D said that he was a bad lot or, because he was Russian, which appears to be a valid reason these days, and strip him of the win, but not Riders B and C, despite the fact that Riders B and C were almost definitely doped (this is cycling, after all).
Thus it is decided that poor old Rider A, who has simultaneously won and not won the race, a mind-boggling paradox a bit like a sort of Schrödinger's Cyclist, if you will, is apparently 'not the winner', but Riders B and C get off scot-free (I am NOT saying that I feel sorry for Armstrong at all, btw, he deserves the hate and vitriol). It's just such a random way of looking things that is so paradoxical it doesn't make sense.
We have 3 armed robberies, suspect A gets caught and goes to jail, the suspects in the other 2 armed robberies escape the law and get away with it. Is this unfair on suspect A? The suspect B and C got away with their crimes? I don't think it's unfair as he broke the law and was caught, it's an argument for better policing/legal system to catch and prosecute suspect B and C.
I know an armed robbery and cycling isn't really comparable in terms of importance but the methodology is still the same.
Now if only the governing bodies in pro sports actually cared about doping then we might actually get real action in regards to doping controls and prosecutions
Hells 500 Crew and 6 x Everester
Don Rd Launching Place
Melbourne Hill Rd Warrandyte
Colby Drive Belgrave South
William Rd The Patch
David Hill Rd Monbulk
Lakeside Drive Emerald
https://www.everesting.cc/hall-of-fame/ |
| |
|
