I actually like the fact that Man Game isn't exactly realistic. It doesn't adjust to make certain riders reflect real life. instead, it gives us a snapshot in time of what we thought a rider would become when they first burst onto the scene, and it's a really interesting database we've developed because of it. I wouldn't want that process to be changed and I don't want guys to be devalued or revalued later on to perfectly reflect real life as though man game is trying to make stats for the next EP.
That said, I think Benoot is a bit too underrated and that snapshot in time ruined if you undervalue too many young riders simply because of their country of origin.
And I think that the catering to certain country focuses goes a little too far. Any team can get any rider regardless of nationality. None of them are reserved. if you choose a less represented country, then should know that like real life (Think Astana and Kazakhstan), you are going to need to be more international to be successful. Or you can stick to your country focus for the role play aspect.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy
Ollfardh wrote:
I never said you have to make it 100% accurate. Some riders don't live up to their early career expectations, others don't do much until they're 27-28. Marcel Kittel started off as a time trialer rather than a sprinter. No one is expecting everything to be 100% accurate, and the differences TMM describes are perfectly explainable this way. The issue I have is different though, I object against purposely giving riders bad stats and potential because of their nation.
Ollfardh wrote:
I never said you have to make it 100% accurate. Some riders don't live up to their early career expectations, others don't do much until they're 27-28. Marcel Kittel started off as a time trialer rather than a sprinter. No one is expecting everything to be 100% accurate, and the differences TMM describes are perfectly explainable this way. The issue I have is different though, I object against purposely giving riders bad stats and potential because of their nation.
Ollfardh wrote:
I never said you have to make it 100% accurate. Some riders don't live up to their early career expectations, others don't do much until they're 27-28. Marcel Kittel started off as a time trialer rather than a sprinter. No one is expecting everything to be 100% accurate, and the differences TMM describes are perfectly explainable this way. The issue I have is different though, I object against purposely giving riders bad stats and potential because of their nation.
Dude, it's one guy.
roturn wrote:
As Heine said. Belgium has a lot of talents already and there just was no room for another big one this season at least.
Similar in GB with Tao Geoghan Hart or France with Latour, which were not added!
If there's a chance that he will get upgraded (as long as he returns to the free agency) like other riders have been if he proves he deserves the stats that people like Alak and Olfardh want him to have then I don't see what the problem is, surely if he does go on to prove the hype he would end up with better stats then if he was added now anyway.
There is nothing stopping either one of them picking him up and developing him for 2 to 3 years until he is level 4 and then releasing him to get updated stats that reflect how well they think he will do in real life in that time period. judging by his age and the level he would need to be it would probably make them closer to if he was given 7 potential now due to how all round he is being kinda hard to replicate with the ManGame training anyway.
That said seeing as it has been mentioned that Latour and Geoghan Hart haven't been added this year and have both been saved for later I can't help thinking I may as well ask now before someone else does, why has he been added at lower stats in the first place and not saved until he could be added later when Belgium could do with a new talent similar to him or when he has proved that he is the real deal or when he is old enough to be at a level that would allow him to be added with more realistic stats?
Anyway on an unrelated note, it's nice to get the DB and see my talents progress and have the first ones Max Out.
So that I can start planning in advance for the upcoming season and renewals please can someone remind me of the wage cap for CT level, or if it is subject to change at least what it was last year so I can estimate how far over I currently am and judge what level of rider I'd likely be able to afford and start coming up with plans A to Z.
and am I right in thinking that it is a max of 20 riders in CT?
Cant we cut the crap regarding Benoot and Quickstep? I know that trolling is fun Alak. but i am fed up with all that Benoot situation. It is one rider, who cares about one rider, there are enough quality riders in the game already.
You want to be in the game or you dont, so say it and move on, case closed.
But why have some newly added riders a low potential and others a real high potential.
I wanted to contract Ciccone who is a great talent but he only has 3 potential While other big talents like mareczko have a 7). Does the potential actually matter?
krisa wrote:
I like the fact MG isn't realistic at all.
But why have some newly added riders a low potential and others a real high potential.
I wanted to contract Ciccone who is a great talent but he only has 3 potential While other big talents like mareczko have a 7). Does the potential actually matter?
It has a huge impact, it determines how strong your rider can get.
I'd actually prefer even stronger focus on real big cycling nations. I understand the MG approach but it's bit too pleasing for my taste. Benoot is underrated sadly.
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
I tend to agree. In recent years we have changed from riders determining team focusses, to the other way around. I dont like that you can just say "I want to focus on Greek cycling" and bam you have a list of decent greek riders.
Other regions have been highly affected by the number of interested teams/managers - Asia and Africa to a ridicilous extend... I do agree with the fact that some talents (regardless of realism) should come through those areas, but as it stands now you can create a fantastic setup (PT worthy - survival wise atleast) from either Asian or African riders. That, imo, is taking the "pleasing for the sake of pleasing" way too far.
Let people close the region they want, and give them a decent amount of domestics, and then let them fight for the leaders of realistic countrits. Like they do IRL. Dimension Data have Boasson Hagen, Sbaragli, Anton and Siutsou (probably more I have forgotten) to create a WT worthy setup, but have several african riders for the balance and depth.
This was the approach in earlier seasons, and I really think that is something to consider getting back to.
Sorry for a little bit longer post in advance, but couldn't resist to reply...
sammyt93 wrote:
That said seeing as it has been mentioned that Latour and Geoghan Hart haven't been added this year and have both been saved for later I can't help thinking I may as well ask now before someone else does, why has he been added at lower stats in the first place and not saved until he could be added later when Belgium could do with a new talent similar to him or when he has proved that he is the real deal or when he is old enough to be at a level that would allow him to be added with more realistic stats?
Riders with potential great all-around abilities are almost impossible to be added in on a low level of experience, as they would then become absolutely different type of rider than we want them to be, it is almost needed to wait with them. The preference is not adding great young riders too early too, as it is not ideal to have a young rider available for too many years of training.
And Latour/Hart - Britain got quite a lot of attractive riders this off-season on the market, so better to wait with a possible good talent for another year to have a decent market there the next year as well, while Hart is really young and it is better to have big young talents added in later, so they can get more realistic stats. France got quite a lot of talents in the recent years and have an amazing core of riders, so there is not a really big need for another great riders, and especially there is not a need to have riders like Lecuisinier in the DB with such an amazing stats right after they are maxed out, while Lecuisinier may not ever being a rider of PT standard. Not and ideal scenario. It seems like to be better to wait with some riders and update their attributes only later, it helps to balance the needs for specific types of riders too.
sammyt93 wrote:
So that I can start planning in advance for the upcoming season and renewals please can someone remind me of the wage cap for CT level, or if it is subject to change at least what it was last year so I can estimate how far over I currently am and judge what level of rider I'd likely be able to afford and start coming up with plans A to Z.
and am I right in thinking that it is a max of 20 riders in CT?
Wage cap for CT level was 1.2M in 2015 and the limit was max of 20 riders for CT. It is currently undecided if there are going to be any changes.
baseballlover312 wrote:
And I think that the catering to certain country focuses goes a little too far. Any team can get any rider regardless of nationality.
This is absolutely wrong. Whole world got new riders, all nations that are present in the game got some new riders, not only these where a team wants to sign a rider. All free agents that were present in 2015 DB went under a review or were replaced by a new real rider. And as all free agents have to go through free agency process, anyone can sign them, there is nothing like 'a team gets a rider'.
The adding process of riders is a mixture of reality and MG reality. The biggest stars in real cycling are usually good in MG too. Some of them may be underrated, some overrated, but things got changes over the years. But it is really hard to guess who is going to be how good in a few years and even the speciality of riders is a lot of time so wrong to find out, and it is then even harder to give riders attributes that will allow them to be trained in a predictable way to have a chance to plan things for the next DBs to keep a good balance of the game. And that's probably the hardest aspect of all, it is not really easy to give a rider attributes that are realistic and would serve the game right.
And well, we are living in a fantasy world of Man-Game, that has their own popular legends like Bakari, or teams that would in reality brought the popularity of cycling and after some time quality too in some regions much higher than it is now. This game has it's own history, we are not just copying what happens in real life. But I agree that it is important to keep the game quite close to reality, but we are exactly doing that, big big majority of the best riders are at least good pro riders in reality. But on the other way we have a mixture of real and fantasy races, we have even some totally fantasy riders in the DB already from the second season. We use the PT system that no longer works in current cycling, we have done exactly the same thing with PCT and CT divisions, Avenir, Worlds or Continentals. Why? All for the bigger fun. And it is bigger fun for some people to have a national champion in their team, it is a bigger fun to have a chance to create a team in a country or region where you want to, it is a bigger fun for some people to have a unique team than just copy a way of a real team that other people seems to be enjoying. You should have a chance to play this game how you want and enjoy it, and it is important to keep a mixture of both realistic and MG fun aspects. It's not too easy process, as everyone wants something diffent and a lot of things are much harder to balance than it looks like, but I think we are doing quite a decent job.
SotD wrote:
I dont like that you can just say "I want to focus on Greek cycling" and bam you have a list of decent greek riders.
SotD wrote:
Other regions have been highly affected by the number of interested teams/managers - Asia and Africa to a ridicilous extend... I do agree with the fact that some talents (regardless of realism) should come through those areas, but as it stands now you can create a fantastic setup (PT worthy - survival wise atleast) from either Asian or African riders. That, imo, is taking the "pleasing for the sake of pleasing" way too far.
You can make probably 30 fantastic setups of riders only from Europe and possibly 1 or 2 from Africa and Asia (and a team only from Asia/Africa would really likely relegate tbh). Is that ridicilous, really? You want riders from Greece because you have a specific interest into riders of that country, but you don't want to allow other people to let have good riders just beacuse they have an interest in African market? That's laughable.
SotD wrote:
Let people close the region they want, and give them a decent amount of domestics, and then let them fight for the leaders of realistic countrits. Like they do IRL. Dimension Data have Boasson Hagen, Sbaragli, Anton and Siutsou (probably more I have forgotten) to create a WT worthy setup, but have several african riders for the balance and depth.
This was the approach in earlier seasons, and I really think that is something to consider getting back to.
You have to consider we are having quite a few teams, that are investing into the cycling in Africa and Asia heavily. If there would be teams in reality that would invest big money there, the quality of cycling would go higher there. You have to keep things in a context. Plus, my personal opinion is, that bigger diversity than in reality makes this game more interesting for more people. Regional teams, more interesting Worlds, Continentals. Or well, shouldn't I disband my Czech/Slovak team, if any unrealistic thing is a problem? There is not any real pro team in my country, so it is not realistic. Shouldn't I fire half of my team, because in reality they are not pro cyclists? Shouldn't I make a campaign for removal of my rider from Albania, because he is not even a real rider?
Top 250 riders in the DB:
Europe 186
North America 18
South America 14
Oceania 13
Asia 9
Africa 9
Top 1000 riders in the DB:
Europe 710
South America 70
Asia 65
North America 55
Africa 50
Oceania 49
We are not letting fight for it the leaders from big cycling countries, really?
I think you misunderstood me. I didn't mean that any team can request riders and they will be given it. I meant that every team, regardless of their nationality, is allowed to bid on ever rider, regardless of their nationality. So any team can still be international if they are from a small cycling country, like Astana.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy
Not really. Nothing I said contradicts that in the links you have posted. I chose the greek focus based on riders that were available, not the other way around. When decided, I asked for some riders that could pose as domestiques in the PT. None of the riders I have asked for, or suggested have stats that will make them be anything than a domestique in the PT. The best rider I suggested was in fact not a suggestion of making better - but making him more developped, so I shouldn't spend 4 seasons to make him a domestique. Nothing else. Besides that I asked for a little more variety in domestiques, so I could also feat a GC domestique, instead of only a hilly one. In the DB there are 2 PT worthy greek riders, and another 3 PCT worthy ones. I even have one of those "Only PCT worthy ones" just because he is greek.
SotD wrote:
Other regions have been highly affected by the number of interested teams/managers - Asia and Africa to a ridicilous extend... I do agree with the fact that some talents (regardless of realism) should come through those areas, but as it stands now you can create a fantastic setup (PT worthy - survival wise atleast) from either Asian or African riders. That, imo, is taking the "pleasing for the sake of pleasing" way too far.
You can make probably 30 fantastic setups of riders only from Europe and possibly 1 or 2 from Africa and Asia (and a team only from Asia/Africa would really likely relegate tbh). Is that ridicilous, really? You want riders from Greece because you have a specific interest into riders of that country, but you don't want to allow other people to let have good riders just beacuse they have an interest in African market? That's laughable.
You really should read what I write, and understand it, before jumping to conclusions, and stating that my points are "laugable". That is not suitable for you to be honest.
I have NEVER said, that we should not give people some riders - In fact I said exactly the opposite. I merely said, that the volume and quality should be tweaked back down a notch, so we reach a realistic level. Not a level where we put in quality riders just because several managers have taken a specific focus. Asia was a major critique point for me, as we (back then) had just one asian focused team, and they were served riders such as Kinoshita, Anuar Aziz, Kamyshev, Jianhui Ji, Chen Shikai, Ki Ho Choi, Kenji Itami, Hayakawa, Libin Chen, Kazushige Kuboki, Ho-Ting Kwok, Yoshimitsu Hiratsuka and probably more I haven't taken account for. They are all SEVERELY overrated in terms of what their talents are like IRL - And I guess that is to give asian cycling a bit of an edge, looking at managers/teams that wanted that focus. And that is OK, but the volume and quality makes it almost irrelevant for those teams to search past perfectly suited riders. And that makes the transferperiod a bit of a bore to be honest, with several managers only chasing certain nationalities - and rightfully so, as there are overrated riders from the perfect (for them) regions. Riders that have never proven worthy of anything IRL, and having been added for the point of pleasing the managers.
Adding riders to give a decent base is perfectly fine, but overrating horrible riders, just to give leaders from a specific country/region is not the way to go imo. Then rather put those stats on rightful talents like Benoot, Kwiatkowski, Ciccone and what not. Asian or African teams can get those riders equally easy as I can get some shitty but overrated japanese guy. So why tweak things in favour of unrealism just because?
And just to say once more - I bought three greek riders that were already in the DB, before changing my team focus from French/Spanish to French/Greek. And now I would like to have a few more riders of a base level of what Kastrantas currently is - And mind you, Kastrantas would barely be a captain in the CT, and definately not in the PCT... So adding those kind of riders I feel is fine - If you then want to make them great spend some cash to train them. It would take years - Sure, but the option is there, and several others have done so with shitty european riders aswell.
SotD wrote:
Let people close the region they want, and give them a decent amount of domestics, and then let them fight for the leaders of realistic countrits. Like they do IRL. Dimension Data have Boasson Hagen, Sbaragli, Anton and Siutsou (probably more I have forgotten) to create a WT worthy setup, but have several african riders for the balance and depth.
This was the approach in earlier seasons, and I really think that is something to consider getting back to.
You have to consider we are having quite a few teams, that are investing into the cycling in Africa and Asia heavily. If there would be teams in reality that would invest big money there, the quality of cycling would go higher there. You have to keep things in a context. Plus, my personal opinion is, that bigger diversity than in reality makes this game more interesting for more people. Regional teams, more interesting Worlds, Continentals. Or well, shouldn't I disband my Czech/Slovak team, if any unrealistic thing is a problem? There is not any real pro team in my country, so it is not realistic. Shouldn't I fire half of my team, because in reality they are not pro cyclists? Shouldn't I make a campaign for removal of my rider from Albania, because he is not even a real rider?
The context isn't changing anything. You are just putting words in my mouth. Nothing else. I haven't said you can't be having a Czech, Japanese, Croatian or Ugandan team because those aren't a thing IRL, now have I? I haven't said you should give up riders or your team, now have I? Every person in this game can decide how they want to play the game - But I see not point in tweaking the game because of people who wants to play it in a way not suited for the current setup. Sure, we can help them get a base of limited riders (as I have asked for myself with greek riders). No problem.
Roman wrote:
Top 250 riders in the DB:
Europe 186
North America 18
South America 14
Oceania 13
Asia 9
Africa 9
Top 1000 riders in the DB:
Europe 710
South America 70
Asia 65
North America 55
Africa 50
Oceania 49
We are not letting fight for it the leaders from big cycling countries, really?
I have never said anything about this. And I really don't like you making assumptions about what I might mean, especially not when I haven't explicitly form the words. Infact I feel it uncalled for, and not in the best interest of the game that I cannot share a point of view without being accused of meaning this or that. If you are unable to graps what I am trying to say, please ask me instead of making assumptions to draw your own conclusions. I am well aware of how this game is built, and I have been a part of it for a significant period of time. I know which things have been done, and what have been tweaked - and for the most parts, I also know why. But in order to make the game as great as possible we need to aknowledge other persons input and discuss it in a orderly manor, and without trying to make others look stupid, or putting words in their mouths.
baseballlover312 wrote:
I think you misunderstood me. I didn't mean that any team can request riders and they will be given it. I meant that every team, regardless of their nationality, is allowed to bid on ever rider, regardless of their nationality. So any team can still be international if they are from a small cycling country, like Astana.
You are right, wanted to quote somebody else and a bit different opinion, sorry about that, but from my reaciton probably everybody knows what is my point about this thing. I have to say I mainly agree with your point you have made. I think teams should be allowed to be like Astana. All-Kazakh team could likely aim for the top of PCT. If that team wants to have bigger ambitions, foreign riders are needed. In MG too. Similar things could be said about an all-African/Asian version too.
SotD wrote:
Not really. Nothing I said contradicts that in the links you have posted. I chose the greek focus based on riders that were available, not the other way around.
And so, is it wrong to have a deeper variety of riders for more nations? For me it is definetely better to have only 90 good riders from Belgium than 100 and not adding in all these riders that are good in 1.2 races, while Uganda has no races at all. It allows us to have one decent rider from countries like Bosnia or Uganda or couple more in countries like Greece or Ireland. Practically all riders upwards from PCT level are in the DB with decent or better attributes.
SotD wrote:
When decided, I asked for some riders that could pose as domestiques in the PT. None of the riders I have asked for, or suggested have stats that will make them be anything than a domestique in the PT. The best rider I suggested was in fact not a suggestion of making better - but making him more developped, so I shouldn't spend 4 seasons to make him a domestique. Nothing else. Besides that I asked for a little more variety in domestiques, so I could also feat a GC domestique, instead of only a hilly one. In the DB there are 2 PT worthy greek riders, and another 3 PCT worthy ones. I even have one of those "Only PCT worthy ones" just because he is greek.
"I dont like that you can just say "I want to focus on Greek cycling" and bam you have a list of decent greek riders."
Isn't this the case? You wanted decent riders and you confirm you have asked for decent riders for PT level from Greece... But you have to remember that riders have to be usually developed from lower experience levels, and especially in small cycling nations there are not too many option for real riders to add them in to keep the game semi-realistic. In other words you have to earn to have a squad specifically aimed on a region. Just look what I have done with my team or ember with his team or how you have developed majority of your French core.
SotD wrote:
I have NEVER said, that we should not give people some riders - In fact I said exactly the opposite. I merely said, that the volume and quality should be tweaked back down a notch, so we reach a realistic level. Not a level where we put in quality riders just because several managers have taken a specific focus. Asia was a major critique point for me...
I believe we have a realistic level. These riders are 4th/5th best riders for a PT team or 2nd leader for a PCT team maybe with one/two exception. And everyone can sign them, there is not such a thing that only specific teams can sign them. Almost all of these riders are in the DB for quite a decent time too. And btw quite a lot of young riders from Europe are added in are almost unproven as well. Cattaneo or Lecuisinier have a superb real career for their attributes and they are from big countries. Or we have riders like Abal or even Justo Tenorio, who even is not a real rider. This just proves that this game is not realitic as some of you may be thinking, it is only semi-realistic. And that's why I think, that it is a good thing to have more good riders from other continents than Europe. It allows us to have fun with otherwise unknown riders, who if would get the right treatment in their careers or at least a chance, they may be good riders in reality as well. We already have those riders in the DB for quite a long time.
SotD wrote:
Adding riders to give a decent base is perfectly fine, but overrating horrible riders, just to give leaders from a specific country/region is not the way to go imo. Then rather put those stats on rightful talents like Benoot, Kwiatkowski, Ciccone and what not. Asian or African teams can get those riders equally easy as I can get some shitty but overrated japanese guy. So why tweak things in favour of unrealism just because?
Kwiatkowski is an under contract rider, Ciccone was added in before his Giro win - and it is better to wait with him to see how good attributes he deserves. Plus Italy has available other good talents. Already wrote a thing about Benoot and Asia/Africa.
SotD wrote:
Sure, we can help them get a base of limited riders (as I have asked for myself with greek riders). No problem.
And we are doing exactly that. There are some Greek talents with PT potential, there are some riders from Africa/Asia with that potential. What is the problem with that? It is unrealistic to have a rider from Greece, Uganda, Morocco or Serbia in either way.
And I never had an intention to put some words that you haven't said into your mouth. If I did, then I apologize.
I have NEVER said, that we should not give people some riders - In fact I said exactly the opposite. I merely said, that the volume and quality should be tweaked back down a notch, so we reach a realistic level. Not a level where we put in quality riders just because several managers have taken a specific focus. Asia was a major critique point for me, as we (back then) had just one asian focused team, and they were served riders such as Kinoshita, Anuar Aziz, Kamyshev, Jianhui Ji, Chen Shikai, Ki Ho Choi, Kenji Itami, Hayakawa, Libin Chen, Kazushige Kuboki, Ho-Ting Kwok, Yoshimitsu Hiratsuka and probably more I haven't taken account for. They are all SEVERELY overrated in terms of what their talents are like IRL - And I guess that is to give asian cycling a bit of an edge, looking at managers/teams that wanted that focus. And that is OK, but the volume and quality makes it almost irrelevant for those teams to search past perfectly suited riders. And that makes the transferperiod a bit of a bore to be honest, with several managers only chasing certain nationalities - and rightfully so, as there are overrated riders from the perfect (for them) regions. Riders that have never proven worthy of anything IRL, and having been added for the point of pleasing the managers.
As a recipient of several of these riders I will say, I am not complaining first of all. But when I first joined I never requested to have amazing Asian riders added afaik. Several of them were already in the game. Ji didn't even join my team until the 2nd season as he was on Pendletons beforehand. In fact, the only rider I think I suggested being added to the db from what you listed was Kuboki, but there were obviously others that I did request that you forgot to mention, and I do admit I have asked for riders to "be better than they actually are" but not until my 2nd season I believe and more often than not they are no more than decent PCT level.
On top of all of that, I dont agree that the transfer period is a bore, and if what you mean by that is more people "are in their own corner" worrying about their own national policies then who really cares? You can get your top targets for cheaper most likely and I can get my average Asian riders, that seems like everyone wins to me.
If it wasn't possible to build a semi-decent Asian team I probably wouldn't be part of the Man-Game still. It adds a level of unique-ness to the game and an alternate to real life and that is where I personally get the enjoyment out of it.
I personally dont see what is wrong with having a few strong riders from the less popular regions of the world. For the people that want a strong team, they are still allowed to put in a bid for the rider, and if you want a regional focus, it might end up being a major coup to sign a rider like that. The major countries in cycling still have the majority of the strong riders and talents which is how it should be, the addition of a couple very strong riders in unusual regions just makes things more interesting for everyone imo, and adding usable domestiques doesn't really hurt anyone either, afterall this is all just for fun.
It must be the off season then. We go through this every year, and ultiamtely I think we have a good balance now. People from less popular areas get decent riders, while the traditionally large and dominant countries still end up winning most of the big races. This seems like a good balance that we have now, and ultimately it has worked well for the whole time that I've been playing.
While other big talents like mareczko have a 7). Does the potential actually matter?
