PCMdaily DB Stat Discussion - PCM15
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miguejack |
Posted on 29-02-2016 16:25
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 321
Joined: 02-08-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Important Notice
Just letting everybody know that the stat team has been increased and Croatia will be working on stats as well. His knowledge at CT level is fantastic, something that the forum has really lacked to do the stats as well as WT and PT level. Croatia will be working solely on CT stats which is the biggest division with the largest pool of riders and is the hardest to research as well, so he has a lot of work to do. He will be aided by Kodman an associate member who is equally knowledgeable at CT level who can give him a second opinion when needed.
To get the best stats, whenever the stats are done another stat team member will give a second opinion, so we get the best balance possible.
So the hierarchy of the stats team will look like this.
CT Level will be done by Croatia (Kodman)
PT Level will be done by Tafiolmo (Croatia)
WT Level will be done by Tafiolmo (Croatia)
Myself and Croatia will have the final say on the stats, but Team Leader Matt who does a million things anuway, will have the final say when there is a doubt or dispute over rider stats, as well as giving other suggestions when needed.
On top of this the team also has an internal stat chat with the other PCM Team Members as well and of course You Guys also give great stat suggestions which are always taken into consideration as well.
So as you see the stats work like the USA is supposed to be working and has a checks and balances system to make it as democratic as possible, so nobody in the team can give purely subjective stats.
Now the best bit......
With the stat team expansion, we plan to release stat updates every single month (if that will be possible), so the game will have the most realistic stats posible, as rider stats can change daily. At the moment a number of CT and some PT level stats are still being improved (so thanks for your patience) and by the next update the db should be 100% at its bottom end with its CT stats.
Thanks for reading.
PCMdaily DB Stats Team
Monthly upgrades/downgrades
Costa ~ Machado ~ Quintana ~ Gallopin
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Tafiolmo |
Posted on 29-02-2016 16:29
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Actually downgrades are much harder to spot when doing stats, so hopefully with updates every month and with more eyes working on the db we should spot them more often, after all there are 3100 riders to keep an eye on.
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emre99 |
Posted on 29-02-2016 17:13
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3332
Joined: 19-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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GvA cobble stat seems to be 81. I heard some people (including me) wants to know why he has the high stat in the database.
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AiZaK |
Posted on 29-02-2016 17:18
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
Joined: 13-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Amazing news guys!!! |
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miguejack |
Posted on 29-02-2016 17:41
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 321
Joined: 02-08-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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emre99 wrote:
GvA cobble stat seems to be 81. I heard some people (including me) wants to know why he has the high stat in the database.
Who else has 81?
Costa ~ Machado ~ Quintana ~ Gallopin
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matt17br |
Posted on 29-02-2016 17:44
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Cancellara and Stybar also have 81.
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Ollfardh |
Posted on 29-02-2016 18:08
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
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In my opinion Vanmarcke or Boonen aren't worse than GVA or Stybar, but that's personal preference. Either way, with the cobble classics around the corner, we'll have a better image in a few weeks
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 12:31
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Bot Agent
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miguejack |
Posted on 29-02-2016 18:42
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 321
Joined: 02-08-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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Ollfardh wrote:
In my opinion Vanmarcke or Boonen aren't worse than GVA or Stybar, but that's personal preference. Either way, with the cobble classics around the corner, we'll have a better image in a few weeks
+1
Costa ~ Machado ~ Quintana ~ Gallopin
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Tafiolmo |
Posted on 29-02-2016 22:07
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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As I´m the one that mostly imposed these cobbled stats at their top end, I´ll explain how they were reached.
Firstly keeping Cancellara at 82 was a tough decisión to make as he didn´t race in the cobble classics in 2015. Because Kristoff and Degenkolb were so dominant in 2015, it seemed hard to make Cancellara better than them, so with this tricky situation 81 was decided as the top stat. So provisionally we had a load of riders with 81-
Cancellara 81
Kristoff 81
Degenkolb 81
Terpstra 81
GVA 81
Stybar 81
Vanmarcke 81
With these 7 riders all on 81 it seemed quite boring and some greater seperations were needed. Terpstra was dropped to 80 because he had a big flat stat to balance him and also créate some differences with his Etixx teammates like Stybar and Boonen.. Vanmarcke was also dropped quite simply because he was a big disappointment in 2015 after starting so strong., but I can tell you that a lot of the PCM team wanted him kept on 81, but as said I forced him to 80 (and just letting you know he´s one of my favourite riders) so there was no favoritism there.
The list now looked like this-
Cancellara 81
Kristoff 81
Degenkolb 81
GVA 81
Stybar 81
It was then decided that both GVA and Stybar would remain at 81 as they had such a consistent showing in 2015 especially GVA, Stybar also but he was balanced with Terpstra.
This then made both Kristoff and Degenkolb the riders to beat due to their sprints and everything looked fine and realistic. The problem then came in my own testing and the testing of other testers.
Both Kristoff and Degenkolb due to their huge backup stats were riding far better than the other 81 cobble riders and could literally destroy the other 80 and 81 cobble riders, in fact due to their backup stats were riding like 82-83 cobble men. I even remember Paul I think telling me how he had Kristoff attack three times in a race and then still have the strength to win in a sprint.
For this reason Kristoff and Degenkolb were dropped to 80 cobble to make them less like supermen. With Cancellara, Stybar and GVA at 81 the playing field is more level and the racing more balanced, so if a rider like GVA were dropped to 80 we would have the same problem again.
So to sum up, Kristoff and Degenkolb largely dictated the cobble stats in the game and the other riders were fitted around them. The only issue now will be what to do about Degenkolb as he won´t be racing the classics, but that´s a concern for another day.
Finally regardless of this, GVA who even if he hadn´t won at Omloop is still at a peak and has the power over cobbles to win either Roubaix or Flanders so he´s an 81 anyway imo.
In the next couple on months this may all change or it might not change that much, we´ll have to see.
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miguejack |
Posted on 01-03-2016 01:33
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 321
Joined: 02-08-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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Two things to consider (in my opinion): Niccolò Bonifazio sprint could be 76 instead of 75 (not higher than 76!) and Tiago Machado mountain could also be 75ish? Dunno, I just feel his mountain ability could perfectly be 75 and that would not be a shock
Edit: "Beside that, the DB is just wow guys. A huge congratz!
Costa ~ Machado ~ Quintana ~ Gallopin
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gargatouf |
Posted on 01-03-2016 11:55
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 320
Joined: 28-07-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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I think it's extremely difficult to please everyone with these stats and as it been said before, if people aren't happy with some of the stats, they can change them themselves.
What is difficult is when everyone wants the stats changed based on one or two (good or bad) performances.
For example, I personally believe that Pinot's downhill stats should be higher than what they are now. He has made huge progress in his downhill in the last couple of years, but what people remember is his one bad day on the Tour last year. Granted, he's nowhere near the level of Bardet or Nibali but he's better than 65 IMO, I would put him at 70.
Another thing that I wonder about is how do the DB makers note the GT contenders in relation to the COB stats? It must be difficult to rate them, as apart from the odd stage in a GT (especially Tour de France over the last couple of years), they will almost never race a cobbled classics. But there are some pretty big differences in the stats. Rodriguez has 63 and Froome 68, with most other GT contenders on about 65. But if you take last year's cobbled stage in the Tour, all the favourites except Pinot who had mechanical problems, finished in the same time. Froome was at the front of the peloton at a couple of cobbles stretches but he didn’t create any gaps to Rodriguez for example, so why the big difference?
It looks like the DB makers are being criticised for Vanmarcke and his COB stats. Same, he had disappointing results if you look at the places he finished at, but he looked incredibly strong in some of the early classics but was very unlucky with punctures and falls, so I think he deserves his 81. |
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Croatia14 |
Posted on 01-03-2016 12:38
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 9099
Joined: 13-03-2013
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to Machado: I would´ve agreed after 2014, but 2015 was a step back as he couldn´t really express his strength losing his leading role due to the team change...and he wasn´t that great as a domestique to deserve 75 imo
to Bonifazio: funny, because we just talked about him to upgrade his MO stat...I´m not too sure if he should already go up to 76, but he´s a candidate so we will follow closely how he does...
to Pinot: I´m agreeing complletely with you gargatouf
to cobblers: 63 to 68 might be a little big, but a difference between them was there (Purito struggled much more for sure)...the GC contenders I really see above anv others in COB are Nibali, Dumoulin, Fuglsang and de Gendt...it will be really interesting to see how Valverde will do at RVV this year (imo opinion he´s capable of a Top 5 but we will see as we have no references
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matt17br |
Posted on 01-03-2016 13:04
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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For example, I personally believe that Pinot's downhill stats should be higher than what they are now. He has made huge progress in his downhill in the last couple of years, but what people remember is his one bad day on the Tour last year. Granted, he's nowhere near the level of Bardet or Nibali but he's better than 65 IMO, I would put him at 70.
We are very aware of it but let's be fair, Pinot just can't cope well with technical descents. If he want him to act like he does in real life 70 will be too high since that's a high enough stat that won't make him suffer, ever: while 65 is. Plus look at some of the other top climbers, they have lower stats than Pinot does - and that will be fixed, yet I don't think there's actually anyone worse than him currently, among the best.
Another thing that I wonder about is how do the DB makers note the GT contenders in relation to the COB stats? It must be difficult to rate them, as apart from the odd stage in a GT (especially Tour de France over the last couple of years), they will almost never race a cobbled classics. But there are some pretty big differences in the stats. Rodriguez has 63 and Froome 68, with most other GT contenders on about 65. But if you take last year's cobbled stage in the Tour, all the favourites except Pinot who had mechanical problems, finished in the same time. Froome was at the front of the peloton at a couple of cobbles stretches but he didn’t create any gaps to Rodriguez for example, so why the big difference?
To be honest, last year's TDF stage was atypical enough, and anyway impossible to reproduce in PCM. How will you ever see the top stage racers leading the stage, while some of the best climbers are far behind, in PCM? The only solution is sticking to the results of the stage that Boom won, instead, which is pretty similar to the results that PCM would carry out in these situations. So basically, we're making sure that who performed best in the last 2 years has higher stats than the ones who just tried not to get dropped last year and/or really struggled 2 years ago.
It looks like the DB makers are being criticised for Vanmarcke and his COB stats. Same, he had disappointing results if you look at the places he finished at, but he looked incredibly strong in some of the early classics but was very unlucky with punctures and falls, so I think he deserves his 81.
Yeah, fact is that in the classics where he was not unlucky he didn't excel either. Based off 2013, 2014 and last year's early classics he sure deserves 81, but some of his results don't really convince me either. But why discuss about 2015 when cobbled classics are underway We'll get better results and talking points very soon
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Naxela |
Posted on 01-03-2016 13:39
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Stagiare
Posts: 169
Joined: 25-02-2015
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
As I´m the one that mostly imposed these cobbled stats at their top end, I´ll explain how they were reached.
Kristoff 81
As one of Kristoff's biggest fanboys i never understood how he was given 81 on behalf of riders like Terpstra and Vanmarcke, which together with GVA is the best at cobbles in the world imo. Sure he have good results and had allot of bad luck in allot of the classics for the last two years but like he say himself, he is not within the best on flat cobbles but that the more hilly cobbles like they have in the flanders suit him better. He is always very confident about himself but always rule himself out as one of the favorites before the Paris Roubaix etc. 80 with the hill stats he has should be more than enough.
But i do understand that waiting for the classics to end before discussing this is the best way to go i just don't see how he has shown he deserve to be the best on cobbles in the game after taking some fourth and fifth places in Harelbeke and the flanders (and that win from last year).
New York Knicks - Bardiani CFS - AG2R - Millwall FC - Le Havre AC
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matt17br |
Posted on 01-03-2016 13:45
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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As one of Kristoff's biggest fanboys i never understood how he was given 81 on behalf of riders like Terpstra and Vanmarcke, which together with GVA is the best at cobbles in the world imo. Sure he have good results and had allot of bad luck in allot of the classics for the last two years but like he say himself, he is not within the best on flat cobbles but that the more hilly cobbles like they have in the flanders suit him better. He is always very confident about himself but always rule himself out as one of the favorites before the Paris Roubaix etc. 80 with the hill stats he has should be more than enough.
Read the whole post, he was in fact given 80
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Naxela |
Posted on 01-03-2016 13:51
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Stagiare
Posts: 169
Joined: 25-02-2015
PCM$: 200.00
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matt17br wrote:
As one of Kristoff's biggest fanboys i never understood how he was given 81 on behalf of riders like Terpstra and Vanmarcke, which together with GVA is the best at cobbles in the world imo. Sure he have good results and had allot of bad luck in allot of the classics for the last two years but like he say himself, he is not within the best on flat cobbles but that the more hilly cobbles like they have in the flanders suit him better. He is always very confident about himself but always rule himself out as one of the favorites before the Paris Roubaix etc. 80 with the hill stats he has should be more than enough.
Read the whole post, he was in fact given 80
Ah okay, i am playing with the DB, i forgot that update wasn't included. Then i'm calm again!
New York Knicks - Bardiani CFS - AG2R - Millwall FC - Le Havre AC
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matt17br |
Posted on 01-03-2016 13:55
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Ah okay, i am playing with the DB, i forgot that update wasn't included. Then i'm calm again!
Well even now he is not 81 yet, seeing how he dominated in-game, and highly doubt he will be given 81 even after the classics considering what happens!
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Anderis |
Posted on 01-03-2016 17:29
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Domestique
Posts: 471
Joined: 13-09-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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gargatouf wrote:
Another thing that I wonder about is how do the DB makers note the GT contenders in relation to the COB stats? It must be difficult to rate them, as apart from the odd stage in a GT (especially Tour de France over the last couple of years), they will almost never race a cobbled classics. But there are some pretty big differences in the stats. Rodriguez has 63 and Froome 68, with most other GT contenders on about 65. But if you take last year's cobbled stage in the Tour, all the favourites except Pinot who had mechanical problems, finished in the same time. Froome was at the front of the peloton at a couple of cobbles stretches but he didn’t create any gaps to Rodriguez for example, so why the big difference?
Well, if you watch 2014 and 2015 TdF cobbled stages closely, you'll se that not all of GT contenders took them equally comfortable.
There were no time gaps among major contenders in 2015, but there was a split after last cobbled sector with 8 riders in front (Froome, Thomas, Nibali, TVG, Van Avermaet, Valverde, Degenkolb and Stybar if I'm not mistaken). The gap that had been created there could well be significant at the end of the day if Sagan didn't close the gap for Contador. Therefore we can rate Froome, Nibali, Valverde and Van Garderen as probably the best cobblers among climbers. Quintana on the other hand, was consistently in the second half of the main group and if any split happened, he would've been caught in the last part of it. Certainly he didn't want to risk that much and it gives us a clue that he was lucky the cobbles weren't more selevtive because apparently he didn't have the strength to follow the best.
Also Talansky was above average in 2014, in front of the peloton at the beginning cobbled sectors, then crashed and lost contact with Nibali's group and despite the fact, he managed to finish the stage in front of the main group of climbers. |
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Ollfardh |
Posted on 01-03-2016 17:45
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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I wouldn't just look at results. Looking at Froome, he's just horrible, hitting almost every pit along the way, almost crashing a few times. Froome not being dropped last year was due to form, not cobble ability.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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miguejack |
Posted on 01-03-2016 18:46
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 321
Joined: 02-08-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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Croatia14 wrote:
to Machado: I would´ve agreed after 2014, but 2015 was a step back as he couldn´t really express his strength losing his leading role due to the team change...and he wasn´t that great as a domestique to deserve 75 imo
Agree-ish
Costa ~ Machado ~ Quintana ~ Gallopin
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