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PCMdaily DB Stat Discussion - PCM15
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 27-02-2016 15:23
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Protected Rider
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Tafiolmo, José Gonçalves is in the DB with 73 Mountain 73 Hill and I dont remember if 64 or similar in sprint.
I would give him 74 in hills and 67/68 in sprints. He was excellent in stage 2 the last year in la Vuelta España. First was Valverde and Gonçalves was second in a hilly race |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 27-02-2016 15:42
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
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PCM$: 200.00
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AiZaK wrote:
Tafiolmo, José Gonçalves is in the DB with 73 Mountain 73 Hill and I dont remember if 64 or similar in sprint.
I would give him 74 in hills and 67/68 in sprints. He was excellent in stage 2 the last year in la Vuelta España. First was Valverde and Gonçalves was second in a hilly race
Well to be fair I remember Goncalves being duscussed here some months back and his stats were based on that. also depending on the finish of the race you´re discussing ACC may well have been a more important factor anyway over sprint.
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| Anderis |
Posted on 27-02-2016 15:50
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Domestique
Posts: 471
Joined: 13-09-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
The stats are not just done based on results and in the case of Howes and Villela they´ve been done for their domestique duties. Stat 73 in mtns is one of the typical mtn domestique stats and these riders are important for leaders to provide as much protection as posible and there are many in db like this with results that often look poor. Therefore if certain domestiques are too low they are not going to be of any real use as mtn domestiques at WT level
I understand your point but in what race you saw Howes providing domestique work worth of 73 MON? I follow Cannondale (previously Garmin) really closely and I don't recall him doing that kind of a work in any big mountainous race. Only Tour of Utah in 2014 for Danielson, but that was not a big race. And Ardennes, but these count for HIL, not MON, I believe.
I believe that for 73 MO you should be at least from time to time with your leader if there are no more than 30-40 riders left in a group during a GT. I've never seen Howes in this position.
That's strange to state that one of your favourite riders is possibly overrated in the db.  |
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Posted on 23-11-2024 13:00
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| miguejack |
Posted on 27-02-2016 16:08
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 321
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PCM$: 200.00
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AiZaK wrote:
Tafiolmo, José Gonçalves is in the DB with 73 Mountain 73 Hill and I dont remember if 64 or similar in sprint.
I would give him 74 in hills and 67/68 in sprints. He was excellent in stage 2 the last year in la Vuelta España. First was Valverde and Gonçalves was second in a hilly race
Gonçalves with 73 mountain and 73 hill? I accept that! 
Costa ~ Machado ~ Quintana ~ Gallopin
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 27-02-2016 17:00
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Anderis wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
The stats are not just done based on results and in the case of Howes and Villela they´ve been done for their domestique duties. Stat 73 in mtns is one of the typical mtn domestique stats and these riders are important for leaders to provide as much protection as posible and there are many in db like this with results that often look poor. Therefore if certain domestiques are too low they are not going to be of any real use as mtn domestiques at WT level
I understand your point but in what race you saw Howes providing domestique work worth of 73 MON? I follow Cannondale (previously Garmin) really closely and I don't recall him doing that kind of a work in any big mountainous race. Only Tour of Utah in 2014 for Danielson, but that was not a big race. And Ardennes, but these count for HIL, not MON, I believe.
I believe that for 73 MO you should be at least from time to time with your leader if there are no more than 30-40 riders left in a group during a GT. I've never seen Howes in this position.
That's strange to state that one of your favourite riders is possibly overrated in the db.
Since this is a team you follow, out of interest what mtn stats would you give Howes and Villela, as I know Howes has been mtn 72 or 73 for quite some time now?
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| Anderis |
Posted on 27-02-2016 19:11
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Domestique
Posts: 471
Joined: 13-09-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Since this is a team you follow, out of interest what mtn stats would you give Howes and Villela, as I know Howes has been mtn 72 or 73 for quite some time now?
I think the stats for both in Expansion Pack V1.6 were pretty much spot on. Something around 71-72 mtn for both would be ok ATM.
Howes was 67 MO 73 HI for some time and then changed to 72 MO 72 HI after his 2013 Tour of Poland performance, then at some point he was upgraded to 73/73 and then downgraded to 72/73 after my sugestion, that he is better on smaller climbs than on bigger ones.
I'm also not sure if 75 hill for Villella is fitting while Formolo has only 74. If they race together, it's usually Formolo, who is a leader and Villella a domestique in hilly races like Tour of Poland last year.
The more I think of it, the more I don't know what stats would be fitting best. But I think Villella and Howes have not shown enough yet to put them only one point in mountain lower than Andre Cardoso, who is 74 MO (and 73 HI, which makes him worse than both Howes and Villella in this aspect) and is finishing GTs in the top20 overall on a regular basis. |
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| miguejack |
Posted on 27-02-2016 19:21
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 321
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Anderis wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Since this is a team you follow, out of interest what mtn stats would you give Howes and Villela, as I know Howes has been mtn 72 or 73 for quite some time now?
I think the stats for both in Expansion Pack V1.6 were pretty much spot on. Something around 71-72 mtn for both would be ok ATM.
Howes was 67 MO 73 HI for some time and then changed to 72 MO 72 HI after his 2013 Tour of Poland performance, then at some point he was upgraded to 73/73 and then downgraded to 72/73 after my sugestion, that he is better on smaller climbs than on bigger ones.
I'm also not sure if 75 hill for Villella is fitting while Formolo has only 74. If they race together, it's usually Formolo, who is a leader and Villella a domestique in hilly races like Tour of Poland last year.
The more I think of it, the more I don't know what stats would be fitting best. But I think Villella and Howes have not shown enough yet to put them only one point in mountain lower than Andre Cardoso, who is 74 MO (and 73 HI, which makes him worse than both Howes and Villella in this aspect) and is finishing GTs in the top20 overall on a regular basis.
Now that you mention, Andre Cardoso deserves a little tiny upgrade (specifically in the mountains stat, imo, should be 75)
Costa ~ Machado ~ Quintana ~ Gallopin
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 28-02-2016 01:12
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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yes I remember when Howes was about 67 mtn and putting him 72/73 in mtn and hills looks a good option, also adjusting stats to make sure that Formolo is leader in hills over Villela, will look at that too.
Cardoso could equally go with 74 or 75 mtn as he finished in both Giro and Vuelta near riders who also have 74 and 75 mtn stats, will look at that as well.
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| Anderis |
Posted on 28-02-2016 16:08
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Domestique
Posts: 471
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I think Cardoso could be 74 with good REC. He is very solid in Grand Tours, but he never fights for the very top places on mountain stages even in smaller races.
EDIT: I've taken a look at the stats of other riders and it seems Jeandesboz is the only 74 MON rider who have finished a GT higher than Cardoso last year. There are usually more 75 and 76 MON riders than 73 and 74 MON riders near Cardoso at the end of each GT. So maybe 75 would not be too much. Sometimes it's hard to get it right.
Edited by Anderis on 28-02-2016 16:17
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 28-02-2016 16:15
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World Champion
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Stuyven, Benoot, Gougeard and co all been noticed this weekend, so maybe some "smaller" riders to look at: Oliver Naesen and Gianni Moscon. Naesen had two good races in the front, so I'd give him an upgrade (FL/COB/STA) to make him a free element in the IAM team. Moscon also rode pretty well, but needs to work on him timing. A similar upgrade could be usefull for him.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Anderis |
Posted on 28-02-2016 16:18
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Domestique
Posts: 471
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Ollfardh wrote:
Stuyven, Benoot, Gougeard and co all been noticed this weekend, so maybe some "smaller" riders to look at: Oliver Naesen and Gianni Moscon. Naesen had two good races in the front, so I'd give him an upgrade (FL/COB/STA) to make him a free element in the IAM team. Moscon also rode pretty well, but needs to work on him timing. A similar upgrade could be usefull for him.
Also Wisniowski had a good weekend. Yesterday working much and finishing in the top40 and today 5th place. His current skills are not very high. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 29-02-2016 02:09
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Anderis You got your wish and Cardoso will be 75 mtn now, what convinced me was as you say his good showing in GT´s.
Olifardh Every single one of those riders you mentioned has been upgraded, as have a whole load of other riders who rode well at Omloop and had really low cobble stats.
Anderis Wisniowski along with lots of others has been upgraded.
If a game bugfix comes out then you´ll get all these upgrades sooner, if not then with the next stat upgrades which we hope will be either a monthly or bi-monthly feature from now on. So everybody has updated stats quicker.
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 29-02-2016 13:06
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matt17br wrote:
I highly doubt so, considering Nibali has by far the lowest acc among the top 8 climbers or so 
Remember how important the influence of that one stat is, especially in mountains and hills. -1 acc to Quintana ? No significance in relation to +2 hills, +2 stamina, +9 descent and +5 flat.
Nibali is much better than Quintana in this DB, Nibali is too good upward mountain (at least as good as Quintana upward mountain) also wins he obviously much time on the cobbles, hills and stages are end with a descent and for time trial.
Nibali just a down mountain to 81, so it fits. So wins Quintana time upward mountains and Nibali still wins time on him all other places.
Edited by Arberg27 on 29-02-2016 13:12
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| matt17br |
Posted on 29-02-2016 13:10
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
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You're not taking into account his lower RES either, that, along with ACC, is the most important next to MO itself in Mountain stages. We can talk about lowering his ACC by another point, but his Mountain stat? That makes really 0 sense to me.
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| matt17br |
Posted on 29-02-2016 13:24
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
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Arberg27 wrote:
Nibali is long from Froome and Quintana in the mountains and Nibali have never been on the same level in the mountains as Contador.
And I in fact agree with you. But if I lower Nibali to 81 he'll be on the same level of his teammate Aru while deciding who the captain is in a GT. There's bound to be a difference between those two, otherwise the AI is just going to act weird, and this is also the reason why there are differences between the various Etixx cobbled leaders in the stats while in reality there really aren't big ones.
Then again, I'm not going to discuss about something that makes happy 50 people and disappoints other 50, it's a personal preference and we're going around repeating this for years. It's easy to change, you don't agree with it, open any kind of editor and change it yourself without trying to argue with others at any cost.
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| nobeer |
Posted on 29-02-2016 13:37
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Kittel should get a small upgrade in hill stats. |
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| miguejack |
Posted on 29-02-2016 13:38
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 321
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PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Anderis You got your wish and Cardoso will be 75 mtn now, what convinced me was as you say his good showing in GT´s.
Olifardh Every single one of those riders you mentioned has been upgraded, as have a whole load of other riders who rode well at Omloop and had really low cobble stats.
Anderis Wisniowski along with lots of others has been upgraded.
If a game bugfix comes out then you´ll get all these upgrades sooner, if not then with the next stat upgrades which we hope will be either a monthly or bi-monthly feature from now on. So everybody has updated stats quicker.
Nice!
Costa ~ Machado ~ Quintana ~ Gallopin
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 29-02-2016 13:43
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
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matt17br wrote:
And I in fact agree with you. But if I lower Nibali to 81 he'll be on the same level of his teammate Aru while deciding who the captain is in a GT. There's bound to be a difference between those two, otherwise the AI is just going to act weird, and this is also the reason why there are differences between the various Etixx cobbled leaders in the stats while in reality there really aren't big ones.
Then again, I'm not going to discuss about something that makes happy 50 people and disappoints other 50, it's a personal preference and we're going around repeating this for years. It's easy to change, you don't agree with it, open any kind of editor and change it yourself without trying to argue with others at any cost.
Impossible to say who is the best of Aru and Nibali as they do not run the same run and Aru has developed ecstatic much the last few years. This year Aru TDF and Nibali Giro, so Astana think most of Aru against the best and Nibali towards the worse. I will now give them the same mountain (81) also Nibali better in hills, time trial, cobbled, descent, stamina and REC.
Edit: To the last, Nibali is 81 and Valverde 80 in my game
Edited by Arberg27 on 29-02-2016 13:55
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| matt17br |
Posted on 29-02-2016 13:50
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
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Impossible to say who is the best of Aru and Nibali as they do not run the same run and Aru has developed ecstatic much the last few years. This year Aru TDF and Nibali Giro, so Astana think most of Aru against the best and Nibali towards the worse. I will now give them the same mountain (81) also Nibali better in hills, time trial, cobbled, descent, stamina and REC.
But consider Vuelta, Astana took Nibs, Landa and Aru there, with Nibali as a designated leader. Then we all know what happened but hey ho.
Kittel should get a small upgrade in hill stats.
He had an even lower stat before Dubai, we decided against upgrading it too much because that's only one race where he performed decently and he's yet to show any consistency in any other that isn't semi-panflat yet. Plus, the rest of his stats are high enough to make up for his lower hill anyway.
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 29-02-2016 14:05
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matt17br wrote:
But consider Vuelta, Astana took Nibs, Landa and Aru there, with Nibali as a designated leader. Then we all know what happened but hey ho.
Yes, Nibali failed, Landa wins king stage and super domestique and Aru wins the race
If you agree, why the same mountain as Contador and close to the same as Froome and Quintana? It with Aru with a poor reasons, Nibali better in hills, time trial, cobbled, descent, stamina and REC.
Edited by Arberg27 on 29-02-2016 14:17
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