-changing from Pro-AM to Pro and Vice versa isn't possible within a season.
-engine penalties...my opinion is kinda mixed on this. Not sure still, how we will do it.
-cars will chosen, because I want not everyone driving for the same team. I want everything kinda mixed. Every manufacturer has a max. amount of available spots.
-Why don't things discussed way more? Well, there are a few things. First up, discussing is alright for me, in german. In english, everything gets messed up and I can't really formulate everything like I want to formulate it. Second, I was already in several leagues. I tell you how it works there(and I'm not only talking about professional leagues)
1st step: You sign up!
2nd step: You pay a certain amount of Money. Varies from 40-200€ per season
3rd step: The lead will still don't talk about every change with you.
tl;dr: Thats just how leagues work. You normally have 1 Leader, who decides everything on his own, whilst getting assisted by 2-5 other guys. Discussing takes up alot of time, fun and energy. If we discuss about everything, we could probably start a new season by 2018. I pay for the server, and I think it's the best to bring the league onto the next level. I've also put by far the most work in here, and I'm really sick and tired, that everything I think about/I do gets bashed all the time.
Since I'm in contact with "ze Germans" everyday, I asked them about their opinion. Everyone would just have thrown everyone, complaining, out of the league.(Like 90% of the other rFactor leagues do this) It's not like I just thought: "That could be nice, let's do this." I have alot of experience, had a lot of thoughts, alot of talks and I'm still not ready to give you guys a perfect solution. There simply won't be a simple solution, which satisfies everyone.
@Jihardy: You had the idea. That's great. I still put 90% of the work into it. I made over half the previews, all highlight videos(which I stopped doing, because there obviously was no interest) and I spend alot of time with the mod, the server and other stuff. In the end, I do the work and I'm the one responsible for it.
Waghlon was the ONLY one, who didn't mash on my plans and offered his help.
Big "Thanks!" to him!
In other words: "Just be happy, that it's free."
Spoiler
Sorry for these harsh words, but I needed to get this off my chest.
-changing from Pro-AM to Pro and Vice versa isn't possible within a season.
-engine penalties...my opinion is kinda mixed on this. Not sure still, how we will do it.
I have a fear that it means someone will become dominant in either, which then defeats their point. Or that someone will fall way behind in one. I'm not saying a lot of changes, just if someone is clearly in the wrong division that they can be moved.
This links into engine penalties. It helps provide some sort of balance and can aid even out the divisions. Granted i don't know how best to do this but we saw the difference it can make this season and has made things more interesting.
-cars will chosen, because I want not everyone driving for the same team. I want everything kinda mixed. Every manufacturer has a max. amount of available spots.
This maximum is what? And as you could see in the Skype, we mostly all want different things anyway. Your reasoning makes sense, but we've seen that it isn't really nessesary.
-Why don't things discussed way more? Well, there are a few things. First up, discussing is alright for me, in german. In english, everything gets messed up and I can't really formulate everything like I want to formulate it. Second, I was already in several leagues. I tell you how it works there(and I'm not only talking about professional leagues)
1st step: You sign up!
2nd step: You pay a certain amount of Money. Varies from 40-200€ per season
3rd step: The lead will still don't talk about every change with you.
As someone who has raced in sim-leagues before i get all this. It does cost money and is run by a few guys. I've, though not for several years, helped run some leagues in the past.
tl;dr: Thats just how leagues work. You normally have 1 Leader, who decides everything on his own, whilst getting assisted by 2-5 other guys. Discussing takes up alot of time, fun and energy. If we discuss about everything, we could probably start a new season by 2018. I pay for the server, and I think it's the best to bring the league onto the next level. I've also put by far the most work in here, and I'm really sick and tired, that everything I think about/I do gets bashed all the time.
Since I'm in contact with "ze Germans" everyday, I asked them about their opinion. Everyone would just have thrown everyone, complaining, out of the league.(Like 90% of the other rFactor leagues do this) It's not like I just thought: "That could be nice, let's do this." I have alot of experience, had a lot of thoughts, alot of talks and I'm still not ready to give you guys a perfect solution. There simply won't be a simple solution, which satisfies everyone.
1 Leader who makes decisions, fine. 2-5 other guys who help out, fine. What we get here is a group of irl friends making the decisions and dictating to use forum users. It's a pretty major departure from what the league was a few months ago.
The main reason things get bashed is because people don't understand the decisions. Make them, and give a reason about them. For example, above i disagreed about the car selection process. Your reasoning is solid, and if i had known that reasoning i wouldn't have complained. Because it was dictate without reasoning i didn't understand and hence disagreed. Now i understand i don't have a problem with it.
It's a similar story with most issues. People disagreed with the mod change for very valid reasons which we tried to put forth. We didn't get any real explanations about why we had to change away from the VTCC mod which was democractically chosen to begin with.
Not everyone needs to agree on a decision. But when you've got 3,4,5+ people disagreeing, then perhaps you should listen and open a debate on the issue. The "That could be nice, let's do this" is exactly how it comes across to us. Decisions are passed down with no reasoning and no discussion. We've been totally cut out of the loop, where we were all involved before. There weren't issues before. We all said our parts and decisions were made pretty quickly. We kicked off the first season easily, so why would it suddenly take years? Especially as more people get experience.
"Ze Germans" have edged out the PCM.Daily aspect. Bulking numbers ain't a problem, but "we" are now completely out of the loop regardless of our experiences. Big decisions, like changing mod, should be discussed by all. Smaller things like engine penalties should be handled by a small group of people with experience.
Right now it feels like "Paul + his buddies" make every decision for all, regardless of it's impact or scale.
@Jihardy: You had the idea. That's great. I still put 90% of the work into it. I made over half the previews, all highlight videos(which I stopped doing, because there obviously was no interest) and I spend alot of time with the mod, the server and other stuff. In the end, I do the work and I'm the one responsible for it.
Waghlon was the ONLY one, who didn't mash on my plans and offered his help.
Big "Thanks!" to him!
In other words: "Just be happy, that it's free."
Spoiler
Sorry for these harsh words, but I needed to get this off my chest.
You didn't need to make the Previews, i'm certain if you asked someone could take that over very easily. Rule making and decision making can be spread across a selection of people. Yep more detailed server stuff and mod stuff will fall to you because you have the knowledge. So ease some work and spread out the things others can do. Certainly you'll cut down on the time spent arguing!
I didn't "mash" on your plans. I offered some thought out arguments and then offered alternative ideas. I tested out the new mod and the changes you've made. I've offered positive feedback as well.
If you'd rather i just said "Yes sir, thank you sir" i can do that. But i don't see how that benefits anyone at all. If you want help then it's here to be listened to.
PRO/PRO-AM promotion: If someone is dominant, he will be switched. I thought, you were talking about switching whenever someone wants.
Maximum is 2/team for now(maybe 3), looking at the current driver counts.(Gentlemans don't count into this, since they can only use Porsche)
The reason, that Tango and Comstar(to a small amount) are helping me with some decisions, is mainly, because, Tango(behind me, did most of the work, has alot of experience and is totally unbiased, which means, that he often has other opinions, than me. He doesn't agree with me, because we know each other. Comstar helps, because he will take over half the cost of the new server.(mainly, because he wants to run a AC server.)
"Ze Germans" have edged out the PCM.Daily aspect.
As I said on Skype, I currently lean away from daily. I want to get new players into the league and a race league simply will not succeed in a cycling forum.
Big decisions, like changing mod, should be discussed by all.
In most leagues, the admin/s decide, without even looking at the drivers. But in most leagues, the drivers are looking forward to a challenge and are not starting to practise for a track 30 minutes before the race.
For the previews: I asked someone. His name was jihardy. He said, that it takes too much time, so I took over like: "But next time, you do it again." But the next time I had to do it again, because it was "too much work". Tango does a lot of work already, so I didn't want to ask him, and Comstar has a job.
You need to see, that "Me and my buddies" are not 1 person. We have each different opinions and we don't support each other.
Your "thought out arguments" mostly were like: "I spin in the pits, it's undriveable," while Tango even managed to pull a good lap with a keyboard.
Otherwise, yes, you didn't quite "mash" my plans like other guys did.
good luck with creating a community driven league. It's something, which hasn't happened before.
Now to some points:
-YES, I do by far the most work. I'm spending 5 days a week, 3-6h per day on the league. My claim isn't selfish or stupid. Just facts. I acknowledge, the work others have put into this, don't get me wrong. Also "practising" doesn't really count(it's not really "work for the league", especially because I'm also one of the guys, who practise the most...
-We are not on the highest level, by far not...there are still alot german leagues with +50 people racing.(I only know 4, these were alot more, 3 years back. Most have switched to AC, rF2 or PCars)
-I contacted you about the Blancpain mod, your only argument was "I hate it, because it's undriveable!"
-Your ideas won't get ignored, just because I decline some ideas. I just HAVE to disagree with some ideas. I just can't say "Yes:" to everything, especially because I'm already compromising in everything I do.
Examples:
"I am too fast?"
PENALTIES
"You cutted corners, overdrove the white line?"
I will not penalize.
"The new mod is too difficult?"
I'm gonna make it easier for you guys.
"You want a split league?"
Fine, you get it.
These are all things, I didn't want at all.
Why not staying with VTCC?
Tbh, it's a zero skill mod. I'm pretty bored with that mod since Surfers Paradise.
You don't need any skill to keep the car on track. I sometimes even drive, while texting in Whatsapp. And don't bring up stuff like: "When it's that easy, why are you getting beaten?"
Some small statistic...
Would've won Austria(looking at the pure speed)
Won Zandvoort
Would've won Bathurst
*Tango steps in*
*Engine penalties kick in*
Still on Tangos pace in Surfers
Would've won Hungary
Would've won Interlagos(without engine penalty, which kicked in hard in Brasil)
Won Monaco
...
Most people are giving you constructive criticism but apparentely this is 'bashing' which shows high amounts of immaturity.
"constructive criticism" is what you call it?
All critisizm I found "constructive" was taken serious.(look at the examples above)
There's this guy, who's blaming the germans for everything.
Luigi is not serious 90% of the time.
You are complaining, that the mod is undriveable(which I fixed for you guys, btw)
I had "good" plans, even for the end of this season. The top 3 should get a small prize, but I scraped that idea, because I can already feel the:
"You only do prizes, because the germans are winning them."
comments incoming.
Btw: Leaving a league, because you're not thinking the same way, is kinda immature, isn't it?
But I'm gonna stop it right here. I don't want things to get personal.
I still do not see why we should use a mod only experienced people can use properly in the way you suggested. I clearly cannot drive these GT cars with basically no driving aids and I would simply spin every first lap, break my front wheels off and get a DNF, and this applies to most drivers I guess. Now the VTCC may not be challenging enough for some off you (3 Germans), however it provides great racing, mainly in the sub-top between guys like TMM, jihardy, ryant, Miguel and me, which would become far more spread out in the midfield due to numerous crashes.
In addition to that you simply are dictating me to change my driving style to super-careful now, which simply is not possible as I have limited spare time between school, internship report, next minor which I have to pick myself and finding a place to graduate.
I propose searching for a more forgiving mod which would still be slightly more challenging, perhaps Formula Ford or V8S could be what we want?
If you continue your plans as they are now I will simply follow jihardy out of this league, and I assume (hope) others will do too.
Manager of Team Popo4Ever p/b Morshynska in the PCM.Daily Man-Game
What i'm seeing is a clear split. On one side are the more experienced and serious racers (Paul and his mates) and on the other are the Daily members who are less serious and experienced (me, jihardy and fjhokie). I won't mention others as i don't know their positions.
This leads to two pretty different expecations/understandings, which is what is causeng a lot of the problem. The serious guys want a more serious traditional league, the less serious guys don't. Hence the clash.
I'm certain there is a middle ground where both groups can still participate and have a good time. There's still more than 4 weeks of the current VTCC season to go. To my eyes this seems like plenty of time to find this middle ground. Except we seem to have some fairly imovable walls.
Prett certain that in 4 weeks we can agree on a Mod and Rules set-up that satisfies both groups. The Split-League system can help this, put the serious guys into a restricted division with minimal aids and let the non-serious guys in a divsiion with free-reign on aids. The serious guys get a challenging mod, the non-serious get a fun mod. No-one can be taking a championship that seriously where this idea can be abhorent.
Paul i'm sure can figure out how to make that work. So whilst he sorts that out some more of us can work on Rules, which don't need to be all new. Just adjust the ones from this season and away we go, easy. I can't see that taking years, i can barely see it taking more than a month. We're reasonable people, i hope, and know how to compromise.
Anyone got any issues with that as a suggestion? Cause if so, we are f*cked and there is no hope for this.
Not quite, just stating I'd leave if you would simply continue to force through plans in general without any initial input from the drivers. I actually do kinda like the BES mod, however I think you should re-think the driving aids as some of us (at least me and TMM) don't seem to be able to drive a car with low/no aids.
When you should have plans they should at least get discussed by everyone active in the leugue, and before posting what the league will do make sure everyone is happy with the decisions.
Manager of Team Popo4Ever p/b Morshynska in the PCM.Daily Man-Game
Paul23 wrote:
@TMM: The league isn't really fucked at the current state. It's just sad to probably see a lots of guys leaving. The league will easily continue.
No i'm sure you'll have it continue as a more traditional league hosted somewhere else. As a Daily League it is pretty f*cked as you don't seem willing to even talk about the issues being raised.
I'm offering up suggestions and comments about how to make things better but i'm getting nothing back. Want to talk about things then i'm ready to listen whenever you are ready.
4 weeks until we finish with the VTCC, that's plenty of time to get some this straightened out.
Also, on this discussion: I agree we should leave the VTCC mod. It's poorly built (the physics aren't really that good), but not for the BlancPain mod. First off, the Simtek mod is fairly unbalanced (911WINSLOL coming). And second, I have one mod which can fit what everyone wants: it's hard to drive (for Paul and the like) but fairly easy to drive for otheres.
TMM should know what I'm talking about. They handle like Blancpain cars, but with more grip. They're very balanced cars, and far the torque sometimes kicking up high as hell, they're incredibly stable. I would recommend this over the Blancpain mod.
I didn't know that had been made for rFactor! That could be a perfect middle ground. Sooo goooood on Race07. Please give it a look at and some thought (gonna try it out myself right now)
Also, on this discussion: I agree we should leave the VTCC mod. It's poorly built (the physics aren't really that good), but not for the BlancPain mod. First off, the Simtek mod is fairly unbalanced (911WINSLOL coming). And second, I have one mod which can fit what everyone wants: it's hard to drive (for Paul and the like) but fairly easy to drive for otheres.
TMM should know what I'm talking about. They handle like Blancpain cars, but with more grip. They're very balanced cars, and far the torque sometimes kicking up high as hell, they're incredibly stable. I would recommend this over the Blancpain mod.
I tested the mod. I don't really feel this "kicking" you're talking about. Yes, the cars are incredible stable, but like the VTCC, I think they're just too easy for some guys(but they are still harder to drive than the BES with the fixes I made)
The Blancpain mod isn't really unbalanced. It's realistic. The 911, IMO, is one of the weaker cars. The only outstanding car is the Audi, but there won't be a good driver driving there. Thank you for proposing a mod, but it won't change my decision.
It's not as challenging as the BES, but as we've established the BES is on the side of being too challenging. The WTCC Extreme is in a mid ground where the non-serious types can race them hard (not just drive for an hour hoping to not spin out) whilst there is still some challenge for you more experienced types. Perhaps you could change the physics to make them a touch more challenging?
Ok bad phrasing on my part. I meant along the lines of, can we not pick a mod because experienced racers (which make up a minority) need more of a challenge?
The BES is driveable, once you turn the aids up, whilst the Extreme doesn't need big aids to be driveable.
I'm still hopeful of finding a middle ground that will satisfy everyone, or at least won't force people to leave
![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
