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After the Giro. Was it clean?
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| jacknic |
Posted on 02-06-2008 13:25
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Well that was the. The Giro is over with the unprepared Alberto Contador as the winner. In my oppinion this years Giro was an exiting one, with the result being up in the air until the very last stage.
It has also been a rather unusual tour considering that none of the big GT riders won one of the deciding stages. Especially the final TT was a huge surprise to me. Usually the favourites battle it out in the top ten of the TT stage. This was not the case in the Giro.
There can be many reasons for this. One of them being the brutal mountain stages leading up to the final stage. But could the reason also be that the favourites this year were clean? I think the answer just might be yes.
In the past we have seen riders take off in the bottom of the last clinb and just sprint up the mountain with huge losses for their competitors. None of the big guys could do that in this yeas giro (exept of course for Sella who was superhuman in the mountains). All the favorites had off days, or at least periods of the deciding stages where they looked human and exhausted.
On the last stage it looked as though the GT riders were spent and tired after a grueling 20 days of racing. Maybe they didn't have anything left in the tank because they couldn't just get some fresh blood out of the fridge.
I feel that we have just seen the cleanest grand tour in recent years. A tour that was won by the most consistent guy. Contador didn't loose too much time in the mountains, and gained a lot on his competitors in the time trials. That's why he won. He didn't anhialate the competition as we have been used to in the good old EPO and blooddoping days.
I think it is a sign of a cleaner healthier sport. |
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| ruben |
Posted on 02-06-2008 13:35
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The last TT the wind conditions changed after the early starters, so the classification riders never had a chance of doing better.
It had nothing to do with being clean or not. The weather and especially the wind is the most underrated factor in a time trial.
Edited by ruben on 02-06-2008 13:35
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| issoisso |
Posted on 02-06-2008 13:42
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somewhere down the line, this thread will turn ugly. this kind of thing always does. still, here's my best shot at it 
jacknic wrote:
It has also been a rather unusual tour considering that none of the big GT riders won one of the deciding stages. Especially the final TT was a huge surprise to me. Usually the favourites battle it out in the top ten of the TT stage. This was not the case in the Giro.
There can be many reasons for this. One of them being the brutal mountain stages leading up to the final stage. But could the reason also be that the favourites this year were clean? I think the answer just might be yes.
cleaner? yes. clean? no.
jacknic wrote:
In the past we have seen riders take off in the bottom of the last clinb and just sprint up the mountain with huge losses for their competitors. None of the big guys could do that in this yeas giro (exept of course for Sella who was superhuman in the mountains). All the favorites had off days, or at least periods of the deciding stages where they looked human and exhausted.
that has nothing to do with the dope. riders always look human and exhausted. Even if no one had sped off (and they did. first Menchov, then Ricco more than once), how doped they are has no bearing on it. it's the relative strengths that will decide on this, not the riders' absolute strength.
jacknic wrote:
On the last stage it looked as though the GT riders were spent and tired after a grueling 20 days of racing. Maybe they didn't have anything left in the tank because they couldn't just get some fresh blood out of the fridge.
They always look like this. How much they suffer is always the same, because if they're more doped up the pace will be higher. it all balances out.
jacknic wrote:
I feel that we have just seen the cleanest grand tour in recent years.
Fully agreed.
jacknic wrote:
A tour that was won by the most consistent guy. Contador didn't loose too much time in the mountains, and gained a lot on his competitors in the time trials. That's why he won. He didn't anhialate the competition as we have been used to in the good old EPO and blooddoping days.
again, nothing to do with the drugs. In 2001 everyone was pumped full of drugs and 6 guys could've won the Vuelta. it's normal that some races are closer than others, I don't think it has anything to do with the drugs. again, it's the relative performances between riders that counts, not their absolute performances.
jacknic wrote:
I think it is a sign of a cleaner healthier sport.
but still very far from being completely clean and healthy. I just pray that the towards it continues as it has. but faster. |
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| Crommy |
Posted on 02-06-2008 13:48
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Bruyneel has said this to try and get ASO to let them in Le Tour
Bruyneel proudly added, "No one in their right mind would think that a professional cycling team with one week's notice could even participate in a Grand Tour, let alone come out on top.
But don't you think ASO will be even more suspicious, given their riders have gone from not race shape to Giro winners within the space of a week?
Edited by Crommy on 02-06-2008 13:58
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 02-06-2008 13:53
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Crommy wrote:
Bruyneel has said this to try and get ASO to let them in Le Tour
Bruyneel proudly added, "No one in their right mind would think that a professional cycling team with one week's notice could even participate in a Grand Tour, let alone come out on top.
But don;t you think ASO will be even more suspicious, given their riders have gone from not race shape to Giro winners within the space of a week? It's up to people to believe Contador's beach stories or not. |
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| mb2612 |
Posted on 02-06-2008 14:03
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I think the giro was more clean for two reasons
1. I think cycling is just becoming more clean in general as there have recently been quite a few people caught
2. The fact that they didn't chase down all the breakaways implies that the peloton is no longer as strong as it used to be.
 [url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
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| jacknic |
Posted on 02-06-2008 14:08
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They always look like this. How much they suffer is always the same, because if they're more doped up the pace will be higher. it all balances out.
What I meant was, that in the past you have seen riders like Basso sprint up the mountains with a smile on their face. I didn't see this in this years Giro. Also we saw di Luca really paying for his brilliant attack on friday. For me it indicates a more natural recovery speed than in the past.
They always look like this. How much they suffer is always the same, because if they're more doped up the pace will be higher. it all balances out.
You are right of course. But if you accept the premise that not all riders in the past were doper you must agree, that all of them being clean evens the field. Say if Basso had been clean in 2005 (i'm not saying he wasn't) maybe Gilberto could have given him more competition (i'm also not saying that Gilberto wasn't on dope that year).
but still very far from being completely clean and healthy. I just pray that the towards it continues as it has. but faster.
How can you tell the riders are still not cleaner? You have picked my post apart, but what are your arguments that the sport is far from clean?
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| mb2612 |
Posted on 02-06-2008 14:45
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Thing is, Basso Armstrong and Ullrich were much better than everyone else they were competeing against, I don't think that is because they had better drugs, I think that is because they were better riders. We are now seeing a new generation come through and Contador and Ricco may well be the same.
Also if doping makes everyone 5% faster say then gaps are increased by 5% as well, however when you look at the time gaps compare this giro to the 2004 one it is clear that basso also just completely outclased his opponents.
[url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
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| Wyman |
Posted on 02-06-2008 14:52
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mb2612 wrote:
Thing is, Basso Armstrong and Ullrich were much better than everyone else they were competeing against, I don't think that is because they had better drugs, I think that is because they were better riders. We are now seeing a new generation come through and Contador and Ricco may well be the same.
Also if doping makes everyone 5% faster say then gaps are increased by 5% as well, however when you look at the time gaps compare this giro to the 2004 one it is clear that basso also just completely outclased his opponents.
It was 2006 Giro when Basso dominated everyone Cunego won it in 2004, Savoldelli 2005 but Basso lost over 30 minutes on 1 stage as far as i can remember 
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| Fjogh |
Posted on 02-06-2008 14:57
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The CFC Group riders was sweating epo |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 02-06-2008 14:59
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jacknic wrote:
What I meant was, that in the past you have seen riders like Basso sprint up the mountains with a smile on their face. I didn't see this in this years Giro. Also we saw di Luca really paying for his brilliant attack on friday. For me it indicates a more natural recovery speed than in the past.
[quote]
you have a point with the recovery, or at least I think so
[quote]jacknic wrote:
You are right of course. But if you accept the premise that not all riders in the past were doper you must agree, that all of them being clean evens the field. Say if Basso had been clean in 2005 (i'm not saying he wasn't) maybe Gilberto could have given him more competition (i'm also not saying that Gilberto wasn't on dope that year).
of course it evens the field, but the ones I'd put my hands in the fire for "these are definitely clean" are still quite some way down. so I'm giving it time.
jacknic wrote:
How can you tell the riders are still not cleaner?
I said precisely the opposite that I fully agreed they are much cleaner this year
jacknic wrote:
You have picked my post apart, but what are your arguments that the sport is far from clean?
most drugs are still either very hard to detect or in most cases, completely undetectable.
cue Aquarius for a more complete explanation (I'm too tired for one now, sorry. maybe later) |
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| mb2612 |
Posted on 02-06-2008 15:00
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Yeah, sorry, my bad I remember that 2005 one though didnt he have a stomach problem?
[url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
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| issoisso |
Posted on 02-06-2008 15:01
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mb2612 wrote:
Yeah, sorry, my bad I remember that 2005 one though didnt he have a stomach problem?
yes, a stomach problem that made him lose a lot of time in two decisive mountain stages |
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| soda |
Posted on 02-06-2008 15:45
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issoisso wrote:
cleaner? yes. clean? no.
Can only agree with that i still got my doubt about certain cyclers being completly clean. |
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| Smitho |
Posted on 02-06-2008 15:46
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To be fair you actually saw that all riders apart from ricco where in trouble in the mountains! Therefore i think it was clean. Astana definetly wont beon drugs as if they get caught nobody will invite them into races. |
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| chuckie |
Posted on 02-06-2008 16:51
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There is going to be a lot of fallen cyclists in the coming year.
Guys like Menchov and Karpets were out of it after the first week..
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| issoisso |
Posted on 02-06-2008 16:53
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Smitho wrote:
To be fair you actually saw that all riders apart from ricco where in trouble in the mountains! Therefore i think it was clean. Astana definetly wont beon drugs as if they get caught nobody will invite them into races.
the counter-argument to that is extremely simple: there are a fair few drugs that they can use as much as they want because no one will catch them. why? because they're undetectable in tests. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 02-06-2008 16:54
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chuckie wrote:
There is going to be a lot of fallen cyclists in the coming year.
Guys like Menchov and Karpets were out of it after the first week..
I don't get what you mean by "fallen cyclists" |
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| chuckie |
Posted on 02-06-2008 16:58
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I mean good stage racers,with grand tour winning potential...who'll continue to under achieve for the rest of their careers.
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 02-06-2008 16:59
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Smitho wrote:
To be fair you actually saw that all riders apart from ricco where in trouble in the mountains! Therefore i think it was clean. Astana definetly wont beon drugs as if they get caught nobody will invite them into races. Ever seen Riis in 1996 ? His face was disformed by pain, that hard he was pushing and giving it all. He was the most powerful cyclist ever back then. And one of the worst dopehead.
I don't look very tired at all when I ride at 20 km/h on the flat, and I'm not doped.
Get what I mean ?  |
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