I found that message at Cyanide, from my mate Ajaciden, written one year ago. Sort of "message of the year" about Watts. Some pictures are now missing, it were tables with riders powers.
Here's the translation :
Ajaciden wrote :
The 410 Watts threshold applies mostly to the average of performances during Grand Tours. Example :
From then, Rasmussen and Klöden can look very suspect (which wouldn't be unusual for [img]Rasmussen[/img], given his dopehead reputation among MTB riders and fans...).
The only stage when Watts were especially high during the TDF 2006 was the Alpe d'Huez stage :
440 Watts on such a stage looks freaky, but both the Izoard and the Lautaret were climbed with a good tailwind, as well as the summit of the Alpe d'Huez...
Thus, no conclusion can be drawn from that, especially given that the average speeds are not abnormal, as seen above.
THOSE two last stages were freaky, and this is where the 410 Watts threshold takes all its meaning. That's why on the 27th August 2006, Cyclismag wrote an article whose title was : "The lowest Tour de France" since 1990". It must be known that Armstrong, Ullrich and Basso rather averaged 420 to 450 Watts on that kind of stages. That's absolutely freaky. Those who managed to follow them one time or another (Klöden 2004, Mancebo and Rasmussen in 2005, as well as Valverde in Courchevel 2005 before he abandonned => all did 440 Watts) are for half of them, involved in doping scandals : Manbebo and Valverde (Operacion Puerto). Klöden was Ullrich's (Puerto) room mate, and Rasmussen has got one of the worst reputation among MTBikers. Operacion Puerto merely confirmed what Watts had been showing since 2003.
Landis was averaging 420 Watts without his Toussuire day without : later positive with testosterone...
Heras average power during the Vuelta 2005 was clearly above 410 Watts : his positive test came as a confirmation of what we had detected. Mancebo and Garcia Quesada went above that threshold 5 or 6 times : both are involved in the Puerto case. Menchov and Sastre are very suspicious, especially Sastre who averaged once again 415 Watts during the Tour de France 2006...
The Giro d'Italia 2005 was not suspect.
During the Giro 2006, Basso and Enrique Gutierrez were very much higher than the average of 410 Watts : both will be caught in the Puerto case. Simoni and Piepoli are also above human range in the San Carlo, and Simoni will be even higher in the San Pellegrino... Cunego is superhuman in the Passo San Pellegrino, him and Caruso both produce more than 410 Watts (average) : Caruso will be caught in Puerto, whereas Cunego seems to work with Cecchini...
(Monte Bondone and Passo Lanciano rather look like climbing races, it's natural that powers are higher, although Basso's performance remains stunning !).
Vuelta 2006 : Kashechkin and Vinokourov are both above 440 Watts during the third week The other riders collapse and ride around the human threshold.
To sum it up, Watts clearly alert us on Armstrong, Basso, Ullrich, Mancebo, Klöden, Valverde, Vinokourov, Kaschechkin, Simoni, Piepoli, Cunego, Heras, Enrique Gutierrez, Rasmussen. Those in bold have been caught in doping scandals (as off May 2006). That's about 60 % of positive cases in that highly suspicious area (average power or power in legendary stages superior to 420 Watts).
Other zone of high suspicion, those whose power averages 420 Watts. There are Landis, Menchov (Vuelta 2005) and Sastre (Vuelta 2005, TDF 2006). One of them is about to be suspended.
Last zone of high suspicion, the 410-415 Watts average. Here are Leipheimer (TDF 2005), Hamilton and Moreau (TDF 2003), Caruso, Zubeldia and Mayo. Caruso was caught in OP, Hamilton both in OP and at the Olympic Games 2004, Moreau caught in the Festina affair, Zubeldia and Mayo worked with a doctor sacked from Euskaltel for "suspicious habits"... 50% of the riders from that zone have been caught positive. One more rider should have been in this zone but left the Giro (2006) too early to get an average power : Gadret, whose dopehead reputation is serious in France.
Evans is just at the limit : 405 Watts average.
This gives 50% of positive cases among those who reached or beat at least once the 410 Watts average. Not bad, eh ?
Among the few who were not caught, I can't believe at all that Armstrong and Menchov could win their Grand Tours without dope, just like I can't trust Astana's three leaders' (Klöden, Vinokourov, Kashechkin) integrity... Sastre is really hard to trust... And I'm firmly waiting the next performances by Leipheimer and Evans to see what it gives. As for Rasmussen, he probably discovered Virenque's secret.
Klöden is definitely a man in black and is targeted by the UCI. Piepoli, just like Di Luca, had childish hormon values during the Giro last year. Rasmussen is another man in black and was excluded from the last TDF because he supposedly doped. Vinokourov was also excluded from the last TDF for blood doping, and Kashechkin was caught for the same thing a couple of weeks later. There's only Cunego left in the first group now. 10% of those have never been caught...
Contador probably belongs to the second group and is involved in Operacion Puerto as AC. 50 % of positive there then...
Mayo was caught during the last TDF with EPO. A. Schleck belongs there too, I reckon. 57% of positive cases here...
Michael Rasmussen wasn't excluded from the Tour, he was fired from his team, and by his team, due to the fact that he "lied" about his whereabouts... Which he is now looking to earn 40M Danish Kroner on...
But Rabobank knew that he lied about his whereabouts.. They aren't too innocent either..
EDIT: They knew where he was .. They knew he wrote the wrong location on purpose .. Even before TdF 2007 they knew it .. So why did they let him start in TdF ??
Edited by Ashton89 on 30-05-2008 13:15
I'm not defending Rasmussen .. Not at all think he is a S.O.B... But Rabobank is just as much to blame as Rasmussen .. You simply can't be manager of a team without having any knowledge of what you riders are doing and so on.. Just my oppinon towards it.
Aquarius wrote:
I found that message at Cyanide, from my mate Ajaciden, written one year ago. Sort of "message of the year" about Watts. Some pictures are now missing, it were tables with riders powers.
Here's the translation :
Ajaciden wrote :
The 410 Watts threshold applies mostly to the average of performances during Grand Tours. Example :
From then, Rasmussen and Klöden can look very suspect (which wouldn't be unusual for [img]Rasmussen[/img], given his dopehead reputation among MTB riders and fans...).
The only stage when Watts were especially high during the TDF 2006 was the Alpe d'Huez stage :
440 Watts on such a stage looks freaky, but both the Izoard and the Lautaret were climbed with a good tailwind, as well as the summit of the Alpe d'Huez...
Thus, no conclusion can be drawn from that, especially given that the average speeds are not abnormal, as seen above.
THOSE two last stages were freaky, and this is where the 410 Watts threshold takes all its meaning. That's why on the 27th August 2006, Cyclismag wrote an article whose title was : "The lowest Tour de France" since 1990". It must be known that Armstrong, Ullrich and Basso rather averaged 420 to 450 Watts on that kind of stages. That's absolutely freaky. Those who managed to follow them one time or another (Klöden 2004, Mancebo and Rasmussen in 2005, as well as Valverde in Courchevel 2005 before he abandonned => all did 440 Watts) are for half of them, involved in doping scandals : Manbebo and Valverde (Operacion Puerto). Klöden was Ullrich's (Puerto) room mate, and Rasmussen has got one of the worst reputation among MTBikers. Operacion Puerto merely confirmed what Watts had been showing since 2003.
Landis was averaging 420 Watts without his Toussuire day without : later positive with testosterone...
Heras average power during the Vuelta 2005 was clearly above 410 Watts : his positive test came as a confirmation of what we had detected. Mancebo and Garcia Quesada went above that threshold 5 or 6 times : both are involved in the Puerto case. Menchov and Sastre are very suspicious, especially Sastre who averaged once again 415 Watts during the Tour de France 2006...
The Giro d'Italia 2005 was not suspect.
During the Giro 2006, Basso and Enrique Gutierrez were very much higher than the average of 410 Watts : both will be caught in the Puerto case. Simoni and Piepoli are also above human range in the San Carlo, and Simoni will be even higher in the San Pellegrino... Cunego is superhuman in the Passo San Pellegrino, him and Caruso both produce more than 410 Watts (average) : Caruso will be caught in Puerto, whereas Cunego seems to work with Cecchini...
(Monte Bondone and Passo Lanciano rather look like climbing races, it's natural that powers are higher, although Basso's performance remains stunning !).
Vuelta 2006 : Kashechkin and Vinokourov are both above 440 Watts during the third week The other riders collapse and ride around the human threshold.
To sum it up, Watts clearly alert us on Armstrong, Basso, Ullrich, Mancebo, Klöden, Valverde, Vinokourov, Kaschechkin, Simoni, Piepoli, Cunego, Heras, Enrique Gutierrez, Rasmussen. Those in bold have been caught in doping scandals (as off May 2006). That's about 60 % of positive cases in that highly suspicious area (average power or power in legendary stages superior to 420 Watts).
Other zone of high suspicion, those whose power averages 420 Watts. There are Landis, Menchov (Vuelta 2005) and Sastre (Vuelta 2005, TDF 2006). One of them is about to be suspended.
Last zone of high suspicion, the 410-415 Watts average. Here are Leipheimer (TDF 2005), Hamilton and Moreau (TDF 2003), Caruso, Zubeldia and Mayo. Caruso was caught in OP, Hamilton both in OP and at the Olympic Games 2004, Moreau caught in the Festina affair, Zubeldia and Mayo worked with a doctor sacked from Euskaltel for "suspicious habits"... 50% of the riders from that zone have been caught positive. One more rider should have been in this zone but left the Giro (2006) too early to get an average power : Gadret, whose dopehead reputation is serious in France.
Evans is just at the limit : 405 Watts average.
This gives 50% of positive cases among those who reached or beat at least once the 410 Watts average. Not bad, eh ?
Among the few who were not caught, I can't believe at all that Armstrong and Menchov could win their Grand Tours without dope, just like I can't trust Astana's three leaders' (Klöden, Vinokourov, Kashechkin) integrity... Sastre is really hard to trust... And I'm firmly waiting the next performances by Leipheimer and Evans to see what it gives. As for Rasmussen, he probably discovered Virenque's secret.
Klöden is definitely a man in black and is targeted by the UCI. Piepoli, just like Di Luca, had childish hormon values during the Giro last year. Rasmussen is another man in black and was excluded from the last TDF because he supposedly doped. Vinokourov was also excluded from the last TDF for blood doping, and Kashechkin was caught for the same thing a couple of weeks later. There's only Cunego left in the first group now. 10% of those have never been caught...
Contador probably belongs to the second group and is involved in Operacion Puerto as AC. 50 % of positive there then...
Mayo was caught during the last TDF with EPO. A. Schleck belongs there too, I reckon. 57% of positive cases here...
Watts are no indication of doping, eh ?
Go away and never come back.
Macquet wrote:
"We all know that wasn't the real footage of the Worlds anyway. That was just the staged footage to perpetuate the coverup that it was actually Vinokourov that won the race."
And if you mention how obviously doped Bettini is, t-baum will personally find you and kill you
Seriously though, Aquarius, did anyone ever say that watts were useless? on the contrary. I personally love to read these comparisons between athletes.
however, setting an arbitrary limit of 410 and saying that anyone above it is automatically doped is, I believe, retarded.
as for Rasmussen, it seems people aren't aware there was dynepo (as in "dynEPO" ) in his urine samples from the tour
Edited by issoisso on 30-05-2008 14:09
I don't even give a shit if he's doped, watching him in lombardia 2 years ago has made him my hero forever
Macquet wrote:
"We all know that wasn't the real footage of the Worlds anyway. That was just the staged footage to perpetuate the coverup that it was actually Vinokourov that won the race."
Very strange .. He is no hero, and he was caught .. And instead of just admitting it he keeps saying that he is innocent.. But nobody believes him .. He should be a man and admit what he has done ..
t-baum wrote:
I don't even give a shit if he's doped, watching him in lombardia 2 years ago has made him my hero forever
so, if a guy wins dominantly playing football against a team of blind people, you will cheer him on because he dominated the handicapped?
strange logic
How is it handicapped when everyone else is doped by your logic.
Macquet wrote:
"We all know that wasn't the real footage of the Worlds anyway. That was just the staged footage to perpetuate the coverup that it was actually Vinokourov that won the race."
issoisso wrote:
And if you mention how obviously doped Bettini is, t-baum will personally find you and kill you
Seriously though, Aquarius, did anyone ever say that watts were useless? on the contrary. I personally love to read these comparisons between athletes.
however, setting an arbitrary limit of 410 and saying that anyone above it is automatically doped is, I believe, retarded.
as for Rasmussen, it seems people aren't aware there was dynepo (as in "dynEPO" ) in his urine samples from the tour
I don't think I ever said "409 W is all right, go away, there's nothing wrong with him. 411 W is too much, surely he is doped and should be banned". Did I ?
Above those never taken, never involved, who beat 410 W (not on one hill, but on the average of the worthy climbs of a Grand Tour), how many do you sincerely trust ?
I don't trust any, simple as that. Almost all of them either are working with suspicious people (sports director, doctor), either are life buddy or training partners of riders who have been caught themselves.
If a new rider suddently averages 430 W, yeah, he might be clean, shit happens, but I won't trust him, since statistically, there's almost 100% of chances that he's on dope. That's inductive logic, not deductive logic.
410 W as a limit is even too high, but it's that high to take into consideration all error margins, extra-motivations of the riders, etc. 380-390 would be more realistic, actually. That's why the "411 is not that high, it doesn't prove anything" argument falls short, IMO.
t-baum wrote:
everyone else is doped by your logic.
are you high or just making stuff up for kicks?
You called someone who died a doper right after he died...
Macquet wrote:
"We all know that wasn't the real footage of the Worlds anyway. That was just the staged footage to perpetuate the coverup that it was actually Vinokourov that won the race."
Ashton89 wrote:
I know he was doped .. No doubt in my mind about that.. I just think that Rabobank was in it aswell.. And fully aware of everything about Rasmussen ..
Yes, that's very likely. They're not stupid. They know some of their riders are on dope. Legally they can claim they didn't know, they trust their riders, etc. but that is/would be fooling us.
Rasmussen was a blatant example. Trusting people has or should have some limit when the people in question are :
1) pro cyclists
2) potential TDF winner
3) man in black (= working with the suspicious doctor Ferrari)
4) having a dopehead reputation since his MTB days
5) trying not to be disturbed during a period that would be optimal to take dope in the perspective of the Tour de France.
Claiming they blindly trusted him is pure hypocrisy.
t-baum wrote:
everyone else is doped by your logic.
are you high or just making stuff up for kicks?
You called someone who died a doper right after he died...
Bruno Neves died, RIP, but that doesn't change the fact that he died from a heart failure that also made him fall, not from the fall itself, that's what the autopsy showed. There's nothing wrong with calling him a dopehead even though he's dead now.
Investigations led last week proved, if necessary, that he and his team were using blood doping.
The other riders collapse and ride around the human threshold.
