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Discussion about new hill/mnt stat
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| togo95 |
Posted on 20-06-2016 00:19
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Domestique
Posts: 442
Joined: 06-01-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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Resistance (RES)
The more you have the more red energy you get.
It is important for riders able to make one big attack, i don't talk a 36x19 attack like Contador, i mean big gear like Gilbert, Sagan or Van Avermaet, so it's good especially for the puncheurs. This is not really where the pure climbers excels, they can make the difference but on a lower acceleration in the end of a long climb.
This got me confused. What is the difference between RES and ACC now? I thought acceleration controlled how much of red bar one has.
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| Compello |
Posted on 20-06-2016 00:57
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Amateur
Posts: 18
Joined: 14-06-2016
PCM$: 200.00
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In this thread: Discussion about the new system of determening whether the mountain or hill stat is used during climbs.
EDIT: As people are joining the thread without knowing the knew system, I'll try to explain it a little better:
Earlier years, this has been the system:
The type of stage determined what stat was used when climbing.
Flat stage: Hill counts 100% on climbs
Hilly stage: 50/50 between Hill and Mountain stat when climbing
Mountain stage: 100% mountain stat on climbing
This year, the system has changed completely, and the stat that is used is now instead determined by the effort (DOT) your cyclist is riding on.
70% effort or lower on a climb means that purely the mountain stat is used.
90% effort or higher on a climb means that purely the hill stat is used.
70-90 effort is a mix between the two, depending on which end of the scale you are closest to.
Edited by Compello on 20-06-2016 18:50
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| Lachi |
Posted on 20-06-2016 01:43
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8516
Joined: 29-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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I don't see it as a problem, I see it as an chance.
If you train the hill stat you can attack on the mountain finish. If you only train the mountain stat, you can ride away before the finish line. It is up to you to build the cyclist you want to be.
This should result in more diversity, for example you have riders like Nibali and Rodriguez. |
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| Compello |
Posted on 20-06-2016 01:49
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Amateur
Posts: 18
Joined: 14-06-2016
PCM$: 200.00
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Well, the problem is that you need an insane long climb to win a stage with 85 mountain and 75 hill. You can stay at dot 70 for something like 15k, so you need a climb longer than that at least. |
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| Eden95 |
Posted on 20-06-2016 01:57
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4505
Joined: 05-10-2010
PCM$: 900.00
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togo95 wrote:
Resistance (RES)
The more you have the more red energy you get.
It is important for riders able to make one big attack, i don't talk a 36x19 attack like Contador, i mean big gear like Gilbert, Sagan or Van Avermaet, so it's good especially for the puncheurs. This is not really where the pure climbers excels, they can make the difference but on a lower acceleration in the end of a long climb.
This got me confused. What is the difference between RES and ACC now? I thought acceleration controlled how much of red bar one has.
I'm pretty sure since PCM 14 or 15 ACC is actually the acceleration of a rider
(the way it was intended to work) as opposed to what you're saying. It works that way in older versions though.
Indosat - ANZ HQ
"This Schleck sandwich is going to cause serious indigestion for Evans" - Phil Liggett |
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| sierramike |
Posted on 20-06-2016 05:49
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Under 23
Posts: 69
Joined: 19-07-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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So the continue sequence of small hills will also have the mountain guy winning(the effort for those hills will be low so MO-can't do all hills on high), punchers will be minutes behind before that final hill comes.
Now you need mountain stat to ride in Flanders & Holland. |
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| Lachi |
Posted on 20-06-2016 08:12
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8516
Joined: 29-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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I believe this is a job for the database makers. They have to make sure that everything works as expected.
For example compare Nibali vs. Chavez. Maybe start with 84/70 for Nibali and 80/76 for Chavez and look how it plays on shorter climbs and how it plays on longer climbs. |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 06:17
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 20-06-2016 08:44
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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But then how will you make Nibali win Il Lombardia again if you lower his hill too much?
To be honest 84/73 is dreadfull and you shouldn't win with a rider like that.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Lamba |
Posted on 20-06-2016 08:44
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Stagiare
Posts: 150
Joined: 15-07-2015
PCM$: 200.00
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Compello: If that's your guy's stats, that's clearly an error you've made.
The below is a screenshot I used for submitting a bug where you can see the stats of my stage rider. I've only trained baroudeur, puncher and climber maybe once or twice. He's well rounded at level 17 and if I train time trial like once or twice, his max caps should be reached fairly easy.
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| Compello |
Posted on 20-06-2016 08:46
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Amateur
Posts: 18
Joined: 14-06-2016
PCM$: 200.00
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Yes, I'm aware I haven't trained him the optimal way, but that's the point. If you train a rider in stage race, he will never be able to win any stage races. This means you will probably have the same problem with young A.I riders turning out to be terrible. |
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| Lamba |
Posted on 20-06-2016 08:51
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Stagiare
Posts: 150
Joined: 15-07-2015
PCM$: 200.00
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With 84 mountain, you should easily be able to win stage races.
If my game didn't crash, I'd have won LBL last night. I had like 4 minutes on the peloton with those 20km to go and enough energy.
In stage races, exactly as you describe; tire the others out. So long as you keep in the low 70s, they might get away from you at the end in the first mountain stages, but at the end, due to your REC and MON, you can simply go at 68-72'ish effort up 15-20km mountain and they will fall like flies.
If you want to ride GC only in the mountains, make a climber. They can get like 85 MON, 80+ HIL, 78+ ACC, 80+ DHI, 80'ish REC. |
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| Compello |
Posted on 20-06-2016 08:57
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Amateur
Posts: 18
Joined: 14-06-2016
PCM$: 200.00
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Lamba wrote:
In stage races, exactly as you describe; tire the others out. So long as you keep in the low 70s, they might get away from you at the end in the first mountain stages, but at the end, due to your REC and MON, you can simply go at 68-72'ish effort up 15-20km mountain and they will fall like flies.
If this is how it works, I'm very happy with that. I guess I haven't tried going far enough into a tour yet. But this means you can't win shorter stage races like Dauphine or Tour de Suisse without high hill? |
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| Lamba |
Posted on 20-06-2016 09:04
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Stagiare
Posts: 150
Joined: 15-07-2015
PCM$: 200.00
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Compello wrote:
Lamba wrote:
In stage races, exactly as you describe; tire the others out. So long as you keep in the low 70s, they might get away from you at the end in the first mountain stages, but at the end, due to your REC and MON, you can simply go at 68-72'ish effort up 15-20km mountain and they will fall like flies.
If this is how it works, I'm very happy with that. I guess I haven't tried going far enough into a tour yet. But this means you can't win shorter stage races like Dauphine or Tour de Suisse without high hill?
When my rider was 76 MON, 76 HIL and 73 REC or so, I did Tour de Suisse the first time and actually won it due to winning a stage in a long solo breakaway (same way I'm playing the classics)
It's only on normal, which surely has some effect, but yes. That I was able to consistently ride between 60-68 effort on a hilly/mountainous stage actually let me keep the peloton at bay.
Going at 80+ effort uphill to try and hang on to Froome, Quintana, etc. has spelled doom for me so far. So I'm learning to take the minor hits and then hope I can make up for it later. They have to tire, eventually and my dude can't "sprint" up hill.  |
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| Compello |
Posted on 20-06-2016 09:40
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Amateur
Posts: 18
Joined: 14-06-2016
PCM$: 200.00
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Then I might not be so negative to the change after all, I'll need to test some more. But I still think we will get a lot of 'useless' stage race riders with high mountain stats and low hill stats after a few seasons. |
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| Lamba |
Posted on 20-06-2016 10:21
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Stagiare
Posts: 150
Joined: 15-07-2015
PCM$: 200.00
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Compello wrote:
Then I might not be so negative to the change after all, I'll need to test some more. But I still think we will get a lot of 'useless' stage race riders with high mountain stats and low hill stats after a few seasons.
Train puncher.
In pro cyclist mode, the estimated max skill caps for a top talent, 19 year old is;
MON ~83-84
HIL ~79-81
TTR ~80-81
PRL ~78-79
ACC 70
DHI ~75
FIG 70
STA ~73-75
RES ~79-81
REC ~81-84
So as you can see, it's quite possible to also get to do the harder climbs where the more explosive stats come into play, you just can't do them in the Quintana/Contador way where they attack with extreme acceleration, more like your rider, if trained "right" can actually ride up mountains at a much higer sustained pace, like 80-85'ish effort for a rather long time. |
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| Compello |
Posted on 20-06-2016 10:53
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Amateur
Posts: 18
Joined: 14-06-2016
PCM$: 200.00
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Yes, I'm not really concerned about my own riders anymore, I think it's an ok way to do it to train in different programs to get the most out of your rider.
My concern though, is that the A.I won't do the same, and I will end up competing against a load of stage race riders that I can very easily beat. |
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| bigggassi |
Posted on 20-06-2016 10:59
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 832
Joined: 28-07-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Is there any official statement on this new system? Can't find the manual in steam...
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| Christer |
Posted on 20-06-2016 12:44
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1414
Joined: 30-09-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Publicly I don't think so, but the original post is a summary of an official post in the beta forum for the January beta.
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| cunego59 |
Posted on 20-06-2016 12:54
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Team Manager
Posts: 6508
Joined: 14-09-2008
PCM$: 1090.00
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That really explains why all the weak climbers outpaced my 74/66 Pro on those short climbs 
I was a bit skeptic when I first read this, but I think it's actually a beautiful solution for the Mo/Hill-ratio. Length or steepness of a climb alone is not enough, but effort takes both into account. I haven't tested it yet but I like the concept.
However, as Compello mentioned, good rider development xml-files will probably be more valuable than ever.
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| Lamba |
Posted on 20-06-2016 15:41
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Stagiare
Posts: 150
Joined: 15-07-2015
PCM$: 200.00
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Compello wrote:
My concern though, is that the A.I won't do the same, and I will end up competing against a load of stage race riders that I can very easily beat.
Ah right. Yeah. You might be right on that.  |
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