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Tiny gaps and huge time losses/differences between riders/groups
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| krikkern |
Posted on 02-07-2013 09:14
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Junior Rider
Posts: 40
Joined: 14-06-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Anyone else ever wished Cyanide did something to make the time-gaps more realistic?
On a mountain stage the winner is almost always at least 2 mins ahead of the next rider/group, which pretty much never happens for real, unless the winner is a breakaway rider ofc that never gets caught by the peloton or the leading climbers/gc riders. Then there's another 1-2 mins gap down to the next rider/group and so on. Just the tiniest, smallest of gaps from one rider to the next becomes a whole minute. In real life, you see the GC riders fight for every second, and it is quite usual that only small gaps appear; 10 secs, 5 secs, 20, 25, 30 secs between riders crossing the line. For real if a GC rider loses 2 mins on a mountain stage to the best GC climber of the day that means he have completely gotten the hammer. 2 mins is an extremely large time loss, but in the game you see it all the time, every mnt stage, and also often on hilly stages, which is even worse. On hilly stages, riders finishing relatively close to each other with only small gaps are either given the same time or HUGE time gaps, almost never small, realistic time differences. The result is that the general classification's time-differences often become HUGE, and completely unrealistic.
Also, if a rider crashes or have a flat one, he's like instantly 5 mins behind!! (Changing wheel or getting back up on your bike after a crash takes less than 20 secs unless you're injured or your service care fail to show up)
If this happens relatively close to the finish he's screwed, even if he's the captain of his team and have all his team mates come and get him. there's not enough time to catch the peoloton, and he loses 5 mins!! And I'm not at all just talking about my own riders, but riders, and especially leaders, of other teams as well.
It's simply not balanced at all, and it's the same in all editions of PCM and its quite annoying, because the game is otherwise so much fun, and quite addictive. I was just wondering if it's only me being bothered by this... |
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| Ellingsrud |
Posted on 02-07-2013 09:23
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Under 23
Posts: 66
Joined: 05-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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I agree. |
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 02-07-2013 09:47
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 29989
Joined: 20-10-2006
PCM$: 200.00
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Actually, they were quite realistic in PCM12 - because the only gaps that happened were in the final sprint on Mont Ventoux in groups of 30 riders. Some would get a tiny gap in the sprint and thus get the 12-20 second time gap that you're looking for.
Downside? The gameplay was horrible. I didn't bother playing the game at all because of it.
I agree that the time gaps are huge, but to be honest, I don't mind. Why not? It's just a number. What I mean is that while 3 minutes is = the end of the Tour in real life, it can easily be gained back in PCM, so what's the big deal?
I'd much rather have fun gameplay and huge gaps than boring gameplay and tiny gaps - and I doubt there's a good middle ground where you can get both (because of the 1/10 scale). |
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| roturn |
Posted on 02-07-2013 09:50
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Team Manager
Posts: 22247
Joined: 24-11-2007
PCM$: 3900.00
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Agree with CT here.
Gameplay is far improved and even if the gaps are wider the result in order of the strongest rider wins is quite realistic.
I will post some exported results soon. They show that sometimes those +2min happen but often it`s more realistic.
Edit:
Tour de France - Ax3 Domaines
Spoiler | 1 | Samuel Sánchez | 4h44'35 | | 2 | Chris Vroome | + 18 | | 3 | Jurgen Van den Broeck | s.t. | | 4 | Vincenzo Nibali | s.t. | | 5 | Joaquin Rodriguez | + 48 | | 6 | Rigo Moran | + 1'08 | | 7 | Michele Scarponi | + 3'29 | | 8 | Daniel Martin | + 4'35 | | 9 | Hubert Dupont | s.t. | | 10 | Damiano Caruso | + 5'02 |
Amgen California - Mt. Diablo
Spoiler | 1 | Joaquin Rodriguez | 3h41'59 | | 2 | Chris Vroome | s.t. | | 3 | Samuel Sánchez | + 30 | | 4 | Jurgen Van den Broeck | + 1'10 | | 5 | Cape Erwans | + 1'32 | | 6 | Teddy Van Gorderon | s.t. | | 7 | Hubert Dupont | + 1'54 | | 8 | Santi Venao | s.t. | | 9 | Teddy Van Gorderon | s.t. | | 10 | Denis Menchov | s.t. |
Catalunya - Vallter 2000
Spoiler | 1 | Chris Vroome | 4h24'26 | | 2 | Rigo Moran | + 1'42 | | 3 | Pierre Rolland | s.t. | | 4 | Joaquin Rodriguez | s.t. | | 5 | Jurgen Van den Broeck | + 2'07 | | 6 | Michele Scarponi | + 2'31 | | 7 | Haimar Zubeldia | + 3'42 | | 8 | Santi Venao | + 4'50 | | 9 | Domenico Pozzovivo | s.t. | | 10 | Brodlay Waggons | + 5'20 |
Criterium International - Ospedale
Spoiler | 1 | Pierre Rolland | 4h29'47 | | 2 | Teddy Van Gorderon | + 16 | | 3 | Cape Erwans | + 31 | | 4 | Domenico Pozzovivo | + 42 | | 5 | Samuel Sánchez | s.t. | | 6 | Jean-Christophe Péraud | s.t. | | 7 | Ivan Basso | + 1'31 | | 8 | Wilco Kelderman | s.t. | | 9 | Hubert Dupont | s.t. | | 10 | Robert Gesink | s.t. |
Edited by roturn on 02-07-2013 09:54
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-12-2024 23:12
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| MartijnVDD |
Posted on 02-07-2013 10:02
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 801
Joined: 26-06-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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CrueTrue wrote:
It's just a number.
This.
Just make sure you know the difference between PCM results and real results. In PCM a 2' gap equals a 30" gap in real life. |
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| sammyt93 |
Posted on 02-07-2013 10:14
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3635
Joined: 03-07-2012
PCM$: 300.00
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As the game is at 1/10 scale then you should accept the gaps as they are as 2-3 mins is about equal to 12-18 seconds in real life because of the scale.
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| roturn |
Posted on 02-07-2013 10:24
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Team Manager
Posts: 22247
Joined: 24-11-2007
PCM$: 3900.00
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sammyt93 wrote:
As the game is at 1/10 scale then you should accept the gaps as they are as 2-3 mins is about equal to 12-18 seconds in real life because of the scale.
This is not really correct.
See it like this: In real gaps are smaller. So weaker climbers but strong TT`ers like for example Wiggins have good chances to gain that lost time again in a time trial.
But as time trial gaps are nearly the same as in real life he won`t gain enough to challenge the stronger climbers.
That said PCM13 advantages the riders with best stat more than former PCM`s. And riders like Wiggins have less worth than Purito for example as Purito can gain 5-6 times 2min on him in a GT but just losing 1-2 times 2min in a time trial.
That said I see there is an issue with those huge gaps. But then again I still prefer having a great gameplay.
So I am quite happy how it is right now. Plus as you see in my results above the gaps are not necessarily that huge.  |
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| tsmoha |
Posted on 02-07-2013 10:29
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 11819
Joined: 19-07-2010
PCM$: 300.00
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The TT-thing is exactly what I wanted to mention It's been the same issue in PCM12 though, cause once a stage is selective, this autobus-thing (with only the Top-15 of a stage keep racing and the peloton sitting up - both in mountain and cobbled races) is quite annoying.
So I guess it's the same in PCM13.. especially in smaller stage-races with one mountain-stage and an ITT, there's almost no chance for a TTer to gain back 5-10+ minutes..
But of course everything is better than "mountain-bug" that happens too often in PCM12.. still think there should be a way to - let's say - half the gaps once a stage is finished.. gameplay sounds fine for the new version, so that's a plus. But I guess the autobus/sitting up is still there, right?
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 02-07-2013 10:54
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 29989
Joined: 20-10-2006
PCM$: 200.00
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If you want large gaps in time trials (I haven't played enough to know whether this is a problem), it's just a matter of lowering the TT stats enough for non-pure TT'ers Basically a job for DB makers.
However, if the general gaps are, as roturn showed, I don't see a problem. |
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| tsmoha |
Posted on 02-07-2013 11:10
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 11819
Joined: 19-07-2010
PCM$: 300.00
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CrueTrue wrote:
If you want large gaps in time trials (I haven't played enough to know whether this is a problem), it's just a matter of lowering the TT stats enough for non-pure TT'ers Basically a job for DB makers.
However, if the general gaps are, as roturn showed, I don't see a problem.
Agree on your last point. Gaps look okay. The riders sitting up once the crucial moves happened is the bigger issue imo, but thats a bit off-topic here 
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| krikkern |
Posted on 02-07-2013 11:11
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Junior Rider
Posts: 40
Joined: 14-06-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Interesting to read what some of you others were thinking about this topic. Some of you make some good points, like how a TT specialist also decent at climbing (like Wiggins) will loose perhaps 10-15 mins on all mnt stages in a tour and be chancesless to gain enough time back, because the time-differences in TT is actually quite realistic. And truth is if you're both a good climber who should be able to limit your losses to the very best of climbers and a good TT you will have a major advantage over the others. In the game it doesn't work that way.
I don't see any reason for why the gameplay would suffer from scaling down the time differences. For starters, once the winner crosses the line the clock starting to count up in the top right corner should simply be slower, causing time differences to be smaller and more realistic, and time gaps shown during the race should be scaled down equally. Should be a simple matter.
Another thing, take for example a flat stage or a moderately hilly stage where many riders finish in the big peloton, the clock could start count (for the sake of gameplay) when the tail of the peloton/group crosses the line, rather than the head. because what triggered me to post this topic was that I was playing the game and a crash happened in the peloton 9k from finish and many GC riders went down. No one was hurt, and everyone got back up on their bikes and the gap to the tail of the peloton wasn't too big, but there was a small one, and because the clock starts counting as the winner/head of the peloton crosses the line they ended up loosing 5-6 mins. Because by the time the tail of the peloton crosses the line about 5 mins have often passed and then just a tiny gap will make those riders behind loose ridiulously much time.
And these silly time-differences occur all the time. So these are my thoughts on the matter, for what they're worth.. |
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 02-07-2013 11:16
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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Screw the gaps at the head of the race! There is a much bigger issue with the Grupetto! Any attempt to push the pace all day on a mountain stage will result in many sprinters being eliminated. I have eliminated around half the race in the GT's just by riding hard in the mountains, and that is as much of game breaker as anything else, because by the time you get to Brescia/Paris/Madrid there are no fucking sprinters left at all and the Green Jersey goes to some random breakaway fucker who was 1st at a few IS's and then the 2+ breaks of his survived
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| florian96 |
Posted on 02-07-2013 16:40
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Under 23
Posts: 64
Joined: 24-07-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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I also think that the time gaps could be cut into half the time.
It gives you more excitement and the GT's are more thrilling. |
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| tsmoha |
Posted on 02-07-2013 16:56
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 11819
Joined: 19-07-2010
PCM$: 300.00
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florian96 wrote:
I also think that the time gaps could be cut into half the time.
It gives you more excitement and the GT's are more thrilling.
Yes, maybe the option to play with either "original gaps" or "1/2 gaps" or so. Of course they will never do that in a patch.
But okay, just like Manx said, the AI of the dropped peloton, which stops racing and starts acting like a gruppetto, needs improvement imo.
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| cactus-jack |
Posted on 02-07-2013 17:00
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3936
Joined: 31-07-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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I suppose losing 2 minutes on a stage isn't really a problem aslong as you can win by 2 minutes on the next stage.
There's a fine line between "psychotherapist" and "psycho the rapist"
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 02-07-2013 23:28
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 29989
Joined: 20-10-2006
PCM$: 200.00
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florian96 wrote:
I also think that the time gaps could be cut into half the time.
It gives you more excitement and the GT's are more thrilling.
How does a lower number result in more exciting and thrilling gameplay? As noted before (and after), as long as you can win 2 minutes just as easily as you can lose it, the size of the gap - in this aspect - hardly matters.
IRL 2 minutes is a lot of time, and thus it'd be less "thrilling", but in this game you know you can get those 2 minutes back, so I don't quite see how it's less exciting than a 20 second gap IRL. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 02-07-2013 23:39
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Since somebody commented about this when riders get dropped for 4 and 5 minutes after a crash or puncture. Quite often if it is a race favourite most of his team drops back to pace him back to the peloton.
My question is, if this happens to the team that you are controlling, is it easy to get you team leader or sprinter back into the peloton using the above method? It's never happened to me so far, but just wondering if gamers use a set method for this?
Second point, I've not played any big mountain stages so far on PCM13 and as always, I've made some adjustments of my own to the database and the only two riders that I have on 82 mountain are Froome and Contador. Now if both of these riders are on form, what type of advantage would they get over riders that have mountain stats of 78 and 79 on big mountain finishes? |
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| nutter453 |
Posted on 03-07-2013 07:27
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Stagiare
Posts: 208
Joined: 04-08-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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The only issue I've found is the autobus one, where there would be a crash/split due to wind/series of attacks by favourites and the entire rest of the peleton would give up, despite there being sveral of the other favourites in there. This would lead to a loss of 5-6 mins on some stages which I feel is a little unrealistic. |
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| nixgud |
Posted on 03-07-2013 08:30
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Stagiare
Posts: 213
Joined: 05-03-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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The problem is that sometimes the big pack dont chase...thats very unrealistic... |
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| ticcque |
Posted on 03-07-2013 22:16
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Under 23
Posts: 74
Joined: 04-08-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Maybe we should ask cyanide to slow the game clock so we can get a better time gap. |
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