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So-called "cheating"
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| TheJoyOfPain |
Posted on 04-06-2013 17:21
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This is my first post here, so I thought I'd start a fight (kidding; I don't actually want to fight).
I've been reading through the forums and have seen quite a lot about various features of gameplay being cheating or doping, in particular, the energy snacks and training camps. I'd like to address these claims critically. First the cheating claim, then the doping claim.
The first argument against these tools (aka. the argument for calling them cheating) goes something like this: the AI teams do not have access to training camps and/or energy bars, so this creates an unfair advantage for the human player.
The first problem with this claim is that it assumes that even if the AI and the player both had equal access to training camps and energy bars that they would in some sense be equal. This is not the case at all. The AI is a program and as such, does not observe or process game information at all the way a human player does. This makes a competition between a human player and an AI, on the most fundamental level, an asymmetrical competition. The AI is not the equivalent of another human player. In fact, it would be a category mistake to conceive of your opponent as multiple AI teams, even if they are programmed in such a way as to compartmentalize their processes independently; AI teams are, at best, independent the way the left side of your brain is independent from the right side of your brain, not the way my brain is independent from yours.
That said, even asymmetrical games have some sense of fairness. Otherwise, what would be the point of playing? The baseline for fairness in asymmetrical games is something like, "a reasonable chance of winning". Not even an even chance. Just a reasonable chance.
So, are training camps and energy bars "cheating"? I think, to say they are, you would have to prove that they necessarily eliminate a reasonable chance of the AI winning. That doesn't, at all, seem the case to me. In career mode, if you start with minimum funding and on extreme level, the AI has a very reasonable chance of winning. Perhaps, if you start with maximum funding on easy mode it becomes more like cheating, but even if that is the case, it doesn't make training camps and energy bars anymore cheating than marking down the difficulty and starting income is.
The doping argument goes something like: training camps and energy bars are cheating (for the reason above), and doping is cheating, therefore training camps and energy bars are like doping.
Even if training camps and energy bars were cheating, they would not be a kind of cheating that is "like" doping. To be "like" doping, rather than unequal access, all the teams would have access to them, and it would merely be a cultural custom of the game's world that training camps and energy bars are unhealthy forms of training.
However you chose to play, good luck! (but if you're using these tools, don't feel like you're cheating). |
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 04-06-2013 17:27
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Tour de France Champion
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At first, welcome at the forum! 
For me, it's just opinion. I don't use training camps, since they give an unrealistic bonus to the rider, and can even be bad for the development of the rider later on.
I don't refuse to use them because it's cheating(though still, I think it is, I know the AI is completely different as humans, but I don't want to gain a massive bonus on the AI, while I can also not do that, and keep it more fair. I understand that it can't be 100% fair, but I can keep it closer with not using training camps as well.)
Didn't hear about the energy gel being called cheating, I use that a lot though 
I can see people's opinion if they call energy gel cheating though, you gain a bonus as well.
Edited by Jesleyh on 04-06-2013 17:27
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 04-06-2013 17:36
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Tour de France Champion
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The training camp is just straight up "cheating". Use 2 camps and you can get most decent riders to a position where they simply cannot lose a race (under normal circumstances). There is no AI equivalent, even setting it to Extreme doesn't match the effect. You use a camp on a certain rider (and there are lot of them) and the AI loses all chance of winning, even if the player is crap.
Energy bars are very different. The bonus they give is pretty short lived and the effect is not massive. The effect of the energy bar can be negated by smart riding from the AI and/or using a different difficulty setting.
The simple way to look at either factor is this. Take two riders with identical stats. Apply a camp or bar to one rider and not to the other. Then compare them in a race situation. The rider with the bar will be slightly better than the non-bar rider but only for a short time, which can be negated by decent riding. The camp rider will be in a whole new league compared to the non-camp rider.
Of course camps are part of the game but they are just "cheating"
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| NTTHRASH |
Posted on 04-06-2013 17:39
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Classics Specialist
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Energy gel explained: +5 ACC for about 15 seconds. Not incredibly helpful, but it can be the difference in whether or not Cav gets dropped on the Poggio.
"America. Show a nipple on television and the whole country goes ape-shit." -DubbelDekker
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| Mwuhi |
Posted on 04-06-2013 17:41
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Stagiare
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Well, maybe it is up to Cyanide to change the AI then? That the AI-teams will use trainingcamps too. I do think this is possible but it will change the whole game.
And as it is a part of the game, I don't think it's cheating but it is a bit unfair indeed against the AI. |
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| NTTHRASH |
Posted on 04-06-2013 17:42
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Training camps explained: 3 days at camp=+7 OVR for 3 months...
"America. Show a nipple on television and the whole country goes ape-shit." -DubbelDekker
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| NTTHRASH |
Posted on 04-06-2013 17:43
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Mwuhi wrote:
Well, maybe it is up to Cyanide to change the AI then? That the AI-teams will use trainingcamps too. I do think this is possible but it will change the whole game.
And as it is a part of the game, I don't think it's cheating but it is a bit unfair indeed against the AI.
Is it possible to be unfair to a computer?
"America. Show a nipple on television and the whole country goes ape-shit." -DubbelDekker
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| Mwuhi |
Posted on 04-06-2013 17:44
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Stagiare
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NTTHRASH wrote:
Mwuhi wrote:
Well, maybe it is up to Cyanide to change the AI then? That the AI-teams will use trainingcamps too. I do think this is possible but it will change the whole game.
And as it is a part of the game, I don't think it's cheating but it is a bit unfair indeed against the AI.
Is it possible to be unfair to a computer?
If it isn't possible to be unfair against an AI, how can you say it is cheating while it is single player? |
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 04-06-2013 17:44
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Tour de France Champion
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NTTHRASH wrote:
Training camps explained: 3 days at camp=+7 OVR for 3 months...
Really! Then a 10 day camp is +23.3 AVG for 3 months... ermmm somehow i don't think so... Especially as camps only train one stat...
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| NTTHRASH |
Posted on 04-06-2013 17:45
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Classics Specialist
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Mwuhi wrote:
NTTHRASH wrote:
Mwuhi wrote:
Well, maybe it is up to Cyanide to change the AI then? That the AI-teams will use trainingcamps too. I do think this is possible but it will change the whole game.
And as it is a part of the game, I don't think it's cheating but it is a bit unfair indeed against the AI.
Is it possible to be unfair to a computer?
If it isn't possible to be unfair against an AI, how can you say it is cheating while it is single player?
 *raises left eyebrow*
"America. Show a nipple on television and the whole country goes ape-shit." -DubbelDekker
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 06:59
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| NTTHRASH |
Posted on 04-06-2013 17:45
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TheManxMissile wrote:
NTTHRASH wrote:
Training camps explained: 3 days at camp=+7 OVR for 3 months...
Really! Then a 10 day camp is +23.3 AVG for 3 months... ermmm somehow i don't think so... Especially as camps only train one stat...
I was utilizing a hyperbole. Sorry.
"America. Show a nipple on television and the whole country goes ape-shit." -DubbelDekker
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| cio93 |
Posted on 04-06-2013 18:02
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NTTHRASH wrote:
Energy gel explained: +5 ACC for about 15 seconds. Not incredibly helpful, but it can be the difference in whether or not Cav gets dropped on the Poggio.
Source?
Not that I don't believe you, it's just the first time I have heard of this.
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 04-06-2013 18:06
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Tour de France Champion
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cio93 wrote:
NTTHRASH wrote:
Energy gel explained: +5 ACC for about 15 seconds. Not incredibly helpful, but it can be the difference in whether or not Cav gets dropped on the Poggio.
Source?
Not that I don't believe you, it's just the first time I have heard of this.
Same here. An ACC boost makes sense though. Or was 5ACC a hyperbole as well?
Edited by Jesleyh on 04-06-2013 18:37
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 04-06-2013 18:08
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Tour de France Champion
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cio93 wrote:
NTTHRASH wrote:
Energy gel explained: +5 ACC for about 15 seconds. Not incredibly helpful, but it can be the difference in whether or not Cav gets dropped on the Poggio.
Source?
Not that I don't believe you, it's just the first time I have heard of this.
It is supposed to stop/slow Red Bar decrease for a certain time period... not sure about the numbers but the principal is correct
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| Lachi |
Posted on 04-06-2013 18:49
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Grand Tour Champion
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TheJoyOfPain wrote:
(but if you're using these tools, don't feel like you're cheating).
In my opinion, the cheating discussions are more about the effect a certain action has on your game experience and not about how guilty somebody should feel when using it. But nice from you to give moral uplift to the "cheaters". |
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| eple |
Posted on 04-06-2013 20:28
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Stagiare
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I struggle with this dilemma. Mostly because I feel I should use whatever option I have to do better, but I also see that it can give a big advantage.
For me, my style of playing (whether it's PCM, Football Manager or Civilization) I always try to use the tools that the game developers have given me to do as best as I can. Sometimes to the point that it becomes exploitative. It has always been like that. Using an editor to gain an advantage would be cheating and it would ruin my immersion. Winning every time due to using the tools the game gives me would not be cheating, but it would be quite boring in the long run.
I.e. occasionally, after playing football manager for a few months, you find yourself polishing a tactic that takes advantage of the match engine. Do you just go back to not using it? After all you were just making changes to improve your efficiency. In CIV there are endless "strategic" options for the gamer to exploit weaknesses in the AI. You can either stop using whatever works, or up the difficulty to a level where the AI has so much advantage on you that it balances out.
It's the same with PCM. You try different strategies in races until you manage to find something that works, and it usually works because the AI is not capable of responding to it or predicting it. To me this is the same as using training camps and it's not cheating as you are merely doing what you can to be the best in the world that the game maker has made. |
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| Kentaurus |
Posted on 04-06-2013 20:56
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I'll just put in my two cents. I'll stick on the side of using camps/gels isn't cheating, the game fairly offers them to us. However I'll note that I don't use the camps (I do use gels) because I feel they give my riders an unfair advantage. Just testing it on my BMC story (using a different save) sending some of my riders for a 5 day mountain camp gave me the following boosts.
+2.8 MO for 42 days
+0.3 HILL for 42 days.
I will say that I hadn't tested this in the 2012 version before, and it seems drastically weaker than the 2011 version where riders would gain +5 or more. It still is a bonus the AI doesn't take advantage of and using it unbalances the playing field IMO.
Edited by Kentaurus on 04-06-2013 20:56
AZTECA - NBCSN  |
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| eple |
Posted on 04-06-2013 21:29
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Stagiare
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2.8 gain is a bit more than I tend to see. That is, it seems to be limited by the riders development, so a young rider might gain a whole lot from just 5 days, but a rider with fully developed MO will not gain much more than 2 from 7+ days and sometimes less than that. |
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| Kentaurus |
Posted on 04-06-2013 22:13
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eple wrote:
2.8 gain is a bit more than I tend to see. That is, it seems to be limited by the riders development, so a young rider might gain a whole lot from just 5 days, but a rider with fully developed MO will not gain much more than 2 from 7+ days and sometimes less than that.
That was actually from Van Avermaet, so an older rider, other riders I had were around 2 - 2.4.
AZTECA - NBCSN |
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| eple |
Posted on 04-06-2013 22:37
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Stagiare
Posts: 173
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Oh ok, maybe it's in relation to how high the stat is then. His MO-stat is not in the top tier class? |
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