I just went for a checkup at a sports doctor. He gave me some tests etc, mainly to check my heart.
He told me: "great lungs, good heart. Build a little more body (add a few more kg to 60kg) and you'll produce 350 Watt." He told me I just needed a little more strength,( arms) chest and stomach (muscles).
I'm not so familiar with the Watt-thing, though, is 350 pretty good, average?
Amateur bicycle racers can typically produce 3 watts/kg for more than an hour (e.g., around 210 watts for a 70 kg rider), with top amateurs producing 5 W/kg and elite athletes achieving 6 W/kg for similar lengths of time. Elite track sprinters are able to attain an instantaneous maximum output of around 2,000 watts, or in excess of 25 W/kg; elite road cyclists may produce 1,600 to 1,700 watts as an instantaneous maximum in their burst to the finish line at the end of a five-hour long road race. Even at moderate speeds, most power is spent in overcoming the aerodynamic drag force, which increases with the square of speed. Thus, the power required to overcome drag increases with the cube of the speed.
So in your case 350(Watt)/60kg)=5,8W/kg, according to wikipedia almost the same as elite athletes.
Edited by fjhoekie on 14-03-2013 09:34
Manager of Team Popo4Ever p/b Morshynska in the PCM.Daily Man-Game
Amateur bicycle racers can typically produce 3 watts/kg for more than an hour (e.g., around 210 watts for a 70 kg rider), with top amateurs producing 5 W/kg and elite athletes achieving 6 W/kg for similar lengths of time. Elite track sprinters are able to attain an instantaneous maximum output of around 2,000 watts, or in excess of 25 W/kg; elite road cyclists may produce 1,600 to 1,700 watts as an instantaneous maximum in their burst to the finish line at the end of a five-hour long road race. Even at moderate speeds, most power is spent in overcoming the aerodynamic drag force, which increases with the square of speed. Thus, the power required to overcome drag increases with the cube of the speed.
So in your case 350(Watt)/60kg)=5,8W/kg, according to wikipedia almost the same as elite athletes.
The cube, not the square, contrarily to what I may have written here or there.
Ian : check my message about Watts the other day.
What kind of test was conducted ? Was 360 W your Max Aerobic Power ? Threshold power ? Explosive power ?
If you don't relate to how long you can maintain it, that doesn't mean much.
Well, I'm no expert, so I don't know about all that. All I know is he told me I could produce 350 Watt if I gained some more body and that I should consider riding some races this year.
I think I'll just stick to his advice and also the advice I think you (Aquarius) gave me earlier: so I'll do the fitness thing, gain some weight or try to, take a whole year of intensive training (if the school hours will allow it), try to fit it in, and maybe do a bigger test after the summer. A test that will also tell me about the conditions of my legs, VO2...
Edited by Ian Butler on 14-03-2013 11:39
Check this, page 10 or so, and below. That explains power values in absolute and related to weight.
Gaining weight to gain power is useful on the flat, but rather useless when it comes to climbing, so I don't know.
5,8 W/kg as MAP makes you an average junior, according to page 16.
What was the test procedure ? I mean pedaling at a certain number of RPM, then how did they increase power levels ?
Amateur bicycle racers can typically produce 3 watts/kg for more than an hour (e.g., around 210 watts for a 70 kg rider), with top amateurs producing 5 W/kg and elite athletes achieving 6 W/kg for similar lengths of time. Elite track sprinters are able to attain an instantaneous maximum output of around 2,000 watts, or in excess of 25 W/kg; elite road cyclists may produce 1,600 to 1,700 watts as an instantaneous maximum in their burst to the finish line at the end of a five-hour long road race. Even at moderate speeds, most power is spent in overcoming the aerodynamic drag force, which increases with the square of speed. Thus, the power required to overcome drag increases with the cube of the speed.
So in your case 350(Watt)/60kg)=5,8W/kg, according to wikipedia almost the same as elite athletes.
The cube, not the square, contrarily to what I may have written here or there.
No, he's right. Drag force increases with the square of speed, it's the power you need to generate to overcome it that varies with the cube of speed.
Ian Butler wrote:
I think I'll just stick to his advice and also the advice I think you (Aquarius) gave me earlier: so I'll do the fitness thing, gain some weight or try to, take a whole year of intensive training (if the school hours will allow it), try to fit it in, and maybe do a bigger test after the summer. A test that will also tell me about the conditions of my legs, VO2...
VO2 is oxygen consumption, VO2 max is oxygen consumption at MAP.
But anyway, I've probably evolved or sharpened my understanding of training since last time I might have given you advices.
In athletics, swimming or cycling, the current pattern is to have training working in cycles of 3 or 4 weeks. 2 or 3 of hard work, then 1 with roughly 2/3 of the work load to assimilate it all, then on to another cycle, etc.
Basically the first cycle if you're starting from scratch would be pedalling technique + endurance work (I1 and I2 if you want to relate to my message in the Tirenno thread the other night), second would be sub-threshold endurance + strength work (I3), then the third cycle, once you've gotten enough endurance and strength, would be threshold and MAP work (I4 and I5).
The work of sprints (short and long ones) is done in parallel to all the other cycles.
Working those various qualities anarchically would be counter-productive (you'd still improve, but not nearly as much as if followed strictly).
Now what you've got to figure is "how to" work those various intensities properly (I have ideas, coaches have some, what works for one doesn't necessarily work for the others, etc.).
So, it takes at least 10 to 12 weeks, according to that pattern, before you can consider yourself ready to race.
Once you've started racing, you should benchmark your fortes and weak points and work on them, still respecting a 2+1 or 3+1 pattern for training.
Edited by Aquarius on 14-03-2013 12:11
Average junior, with only 1 year training, I think that's pretty good (just turned 20). I'll try that cycle-training. So that's 4 weeks endurance, 4 weeks strength and then 4 weeks MAP work. I agree climbing is about kg, but he still advised some more "sixpack" muscles and some chest, to have some strength in sprinting and others. I guess that's important. 55kg might be a bit too less.
As someone who once had to study racecar design aerodynamics in depth, I can assure you it increases with the square of speed, not the cube
Ian Butler wrote:
Thanks for the extensive information!
Average junior, with only 1 year training, I think that's pretty good (just turned 20). I'll try that cycle-training. So that's 4 weeks endurance, 4 weeks strength and then 4 weeks MAP work. I agree climbing is about kg, but he still advised some more "sixpack" muscles and some chest, to have some strength in sprinting and others. I guess that's important. 55kg might be a bit too less.
Unless you're planning to move out of Belgium, forget focusing on being a climber
Unfortunately I have nothing else to add to the topic, I know barely anything about the science of cycling Edited by issoisso on 14-03-2013 18:55
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"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
Ian Butler wrote:
Thanks for the extensive information!
Average junior, with only 1 year training, I think that's pretty good (just turned 20). I'll try that cycle-training. So that's 4 weeks endurance, 4 weeks strength and then 4 weeks MAP work. I agree climbing is about kg, but he still advised some more "sixpack" muscles and some chest, to have some strength in sprinting and others. I guess that's important. 55kg might be a bit too less.
It's not only strength, it's also high endurance, but sub-threshold, which means a very sustained pace (do 3x12 minutes, 2x20 minutes or stuff like that), the kind of pace you'd climb a mountain on. I'd say it's even more important than the strength work, even though it's done at the same intensity.
And the third cycle is not only about MAP, but also about threshold. You do shorter intervals there, like 2, 3, 4 minutes with 1 or 2 minutes rest, and several times during the ride.
Also, it's important that you can measure your work loads, so you can properly dose the assimilation weeks.
I'd have to agree with issoisso about the climber thing : if you lack sheer power because you're too light, you can still cope with it by hiding in a cap, which might reduce up to 20 or 25 % the power needed to ride at a given speed (the fastest and the most compact the pack, the more power you can save), whereas "money time" usually happens in climbs.
Well, of course given how light you are you'd better move out of Belgium, and/or gain some weight, like 5 kg or something.
id not worry about "how many watts you might be able to produce" once you get to the level of racing where that knowledge would matter youll have already won races. just focus on your training and race as often as you can (at least once a week) all the standard pro rider talking points (training peaks, riding specialty, and watt output) mean absolutely nothing to the beginning racer. in 99% of the races youll see its the rider with the most experience and guts who wins, not the strongest. you could ride for 5 years and still not know if your a "climber" or not so dont get hung up on labels. always ride your hardest and you can do well in all kinds of races. starting out is super exciting and i wish you the best of luck!
edit: i should also mention that while training with a watt meter its tempting to push yourself in your workouts to up your "Avg watts". this is to be avoided. its better to push out those extra watts during your hard efforts than push a little extra through the whole ride. youll end up with lower avg watts but a better workout. at the moment im pretty fat from winter and maxing out on the trainer around 800w. havent done much yet this season so i cant give you a great 10 min power number. i only see watts in the winter on the trainer tho. once i go outside for training again i use heart rate but id imagine i lose some power when the weight comes off in the spring.
Edited by CosmicOsmo on 18-03-2013 06:45
top 10 of all time in no particular order, not including the cannibal cause hes automatically #1:
-Gemininani -Nencini -Anquetil -Coppi
-Kelly -Hinault -Zabel -Bettini -Rebellin -Magni
..and honorable mention to Tom Simpson whos career was cut short.
Top 5 noobs most likely to tear it up this season:
-Phinney -Moser -TJ -Guardini -DURBO!
