I’ve seen a lot of games appearing here on the forum, and I’m thinking about making one myself. But I don’t want to start a project without it spinning out of control. I don’t want to spend entire evenings working on the database, but I don’t want to do a half-arsed job either. I don’t want to burn out on cycling manager and I don’t want to abandon this game halfway through. So I beg upon your assembled wisdom, give me your thoughts about the following stuff:
1) Storyline
I know I’m borrowing a lot of stuff that has been used before, but I’m trying to put my own ideas in there as well. Each person will be playing all of the following:
A) A manager, for both continental or world tour. You will get a team, try to do your best with it. Plan seasons and get the best results.
B) A young, promising rider within that team. You are 24 and the world lies ahead of you. You aren’t a star yet, but you will be growing throughout the season. How fast you will grow, that isn’t certain yet.
C) An older, 36 year old rider. You are starting to decline, but you are able to spend 1 more year at the top, maybe 2, maybe 3.
They are in the same team, so you are competing against other people in team vs. team format.
You will be commenting on races as one or several of these people. How good your stories are, will improve your young rider and slow the decline of your old rider.
How is this in terms of originality, fun, excitement, etc?
2) Season
As per UCI rules, all World Tour teams have to start in World Tour races. The wild cards are divided amongst continental teams. Applications will have to be sent in to the Big Boss (le Me), who will decide. The following stuff can be taken into account: nationality, riders you’ll be bringing, motivation, history with the race,… ). Basicly you will need to convince me as if I were the ASO. The same applies for the continental races, except World Tour teams have to apply as well, if they want to join that race.
I’m thinking about fitness planning, but this will require a lot of database work. Still, it would be interesting to give your riders a boost in their favourite races. Any ideas about this are highly appreciated!
The question here is how much time it will take to work on the database for season planning of all teams, maybe even all riders. This is a scary part for me, as I’m not that good with databases, but I’m not in favour of the same fitness throughout the season. Is there maybe a middle way?
3) Stats
The NPC riders will not receive any stat changes. Your young talent will have starting stats ranging from 55 to 77, with a point system. Your older rider will have stats 60-82, with the same point system. The details of this still have to be worked out, but it will be more about balance than focusing on 1-2 stats.
Depending on the quality of your Team HQ and the introduction posts, you will earn up to 3 points extra to spend on your riders as you like!
There will be 4 updates each season:
- after Milan-San Remo
- before Giro
- after Tour
- end of the season
Of those 4 updates, 2 are used for improving your young rider, 2 are used to prevent decline of your older rider. You can either choose the alternating between Young and Old rider as YOOY or OYYO.
Was that clear? Is this realistic? Is this manageable?
4) Improving
As mentioned above, the better your stories are, the more improvements your young rider gets. Which stats get improved, is up to both tactic and a bit of luck. For each point you earned, there will be a 100-roll.
8 stats of your choice will have a 4% chance of being picked
2 stats of your choice will have a 9% chance of being picked
1 stat of your choice will have a 12% chance of being picked
1 stat of your choice will have a 16% chance of being picked
1 stat of your choice will have a 22% chance of being picked
For example: as sprinter a sprinter you could place your stats..
Sprint on 22%
Acc on 16%
Flat on 12%
Hill and Rec on 9%
The rest on 4%
Let’s say you earn 4 points, so 4 rolls, there’s a fair chance your sprint stat will be increased at least once. I’ll let the math experts do the math ;)
I’m thinking of a possible 6 points earned each time, but that’s still open for debate.
Only one question here, will this end in total chaos or might it work?
5) Decline
Similar to the improving, but just the other way around. Since decline is inevitable, you cannot stop it, but you can reduce it. Each old rider update,12 Point will be lost, of which 6 can be saved with the quality of your reports.
The roll system works exactly the opposite way of improving.
4 stats of your choice will have a 6% chance of being picked
7 stats of your choice will have a 8% chance of being picked
2 stats of your choice will have a 10% chance of being picked
For example: as cobbler you could place your stats..
Cobbles, Flat, Hills and Sprint on 6%
Mountain and TT on 10%
The rest on 8%
Same question as above, could this work?
6) Season
It will be a mix of World Tour and Continental, as I said. World Tour in full, added with the national and world championships and handpicked Continental races. Stuff like Omloop Het Nieuwsblad, Strade Bianchi, Paris-Tours, Tour de California etc..). Race days will be around 70.
This part seems pretty straightforward, but I guess which races we’ll use and how many race days we’ll have is up for debate.
7) World Tour vs. Continental team
As the World Tour gives an obvious advantage to the races and the riders, Continental managers will have an extra 5 points to spend on their young rider, while they lose 3 for their old rider. I hope this makes sense that local talents start in a local team and older riders have their status to maintain a spot in the World Tour.
I’m also thinking about adding a bonus point for goals depending on your team. Something like win Ronde van Vlaanderen for Quick Step, while it will only be top 5 RvV for Landbouwkrediet. For Euskaltel it will be something like win Basque Country, for Europecar top 3 Paris-Nice, etc. You all know how it works in game.
Essentially this gives people a chance to make choices. Topsport Vlaanderen will have a hard time getting selected for races and the team isn’t that great, but their expectations will be low and they’ll benefit from a +5 young rider. Does this sound ok?
8) Any stuff I may have forgotten
Even if it’s not on the list, all feedback is welcome! If anything wasn't clear, feel free to ask!
Thank you for taking the time to read this through. Even more thanks to you if you would leave your comments below. Don’t be afraid to point out the negative. If this is going to be a total disaster, let me know before I start it!
Edited by Ollfardh on 17-09-2013 21:08
It would definitely be really interesting, it's a good idea.
However, as Luigi said, it is kind of similar to PCMCL. It does NOT mean that it could not work. It definitely could, but in my opinion it would/will have to be fast paced.
You said that there will be 4 reports each year. It's a great idea, but in order to keep this game interesting, it would be best to progress as fast as possible with those reports.
Questions: You also play as a manager of a team. Do you simply add 2 riders (1 old, 1 young) to your roster, or do you have to kick out some riders? Also, since you play as a manager too, do you plan on having a transfer season before the real racing begins (like in Manx's season)?
That's pretty much it, I'd like to see it succeed, and maybe be part of it
Also, here is a rare dancing Homer for motivation:
Okay, I try to comment on all the stuff...
1: I think it's hard to be original, but this is still original, because there are some new idea's in it...
2: The boosting in favorite races seems a good idea.
The fitness question is hard, but maybe you can do that you choose a few races where your fitness is 90, some races you will be 80 and some races you will be 70. Of course having a point system would make it more exciting. Where you can choose the fitness per race, when having 80 pts average per race... So if you participate in 4 races(I know this is few), you can for example have a race 92, 1 race 68 and the others 80. But it's just an idea, and I think it takes some effort to use this system... But I think that would be fun (and not used in another custom game yet btw)
3: It's all clear, and I think it's realistic... Maybe you can include some other age's too, with different stats, so the situation of the riders is more different... (e.g. 21 years, not good yet, but developing fast. or 41 years, ex-legend, still good, but declining really, really fast)
You still have to choose 2 riders in that situation, but you may choose which two situations you're gonna choose...
I know this will make it more complicated, but I think the situations are too similair otherwise(I mean that half of the players is 24, the other half 36, and nothing else...)
4: I think it's nice, but not sure if people want more control in the developing of their rider... The idea is very creative btw, but how are you going to 'roll'
5: Just like in 4, maybe the people want more control in the declining... I don't think it will result in chaos though, but just wondering how you will do the 'rolls'...
6: I really like it that the WT can choose some races who are continental and that the CT can apply for a wildcard... But will there be a continental calendar, or can the CT teams also choose their continental calendar?
7: Yeah, looks fair... But I think older riders can join a CT team, but there has to be a drawback... Not sure what one... I like the goals thing, but maybe you can do it more Man-game 'style' that teams can decide their goals at the start of the season, and get rewarded for setting higher goals(If they manage to meet the goal)
8: Maybe you can include transfers, so that the teams can change, apart from the 'custom' riders. That will give e.g. Topsport Vlaanderen a chance to be a WT team, without being just dependant of the few custom riders(I don't think there will be 15 custom riders per team, especially not in the first season)
Oh yeah, and I think it's better if the current riders will improve... Not too complicated, just for example: Age 18-22 2 stats up per year(except some of the wonderkids, like Sagan, who you can do 1 per year) 23-27 1 stat up per year. 27-30 nothing, 31-34 1 stat down per year, 35-38 2 stats down per year, and 39+ 4 stats down per year
I just want to say that I think this is an idea with potential... It looks good, IMO, but maybe my suggestions would make the game too huge and complicated... This will take some time for you I guess, but you can always find some people who want to help you in this nice community... Including me... I can help you if necassary, but the time I have varies a lot...
2 Season
That will be a lot of work if there are fitness plans. To decide wild cards is easy. If its run in career mode it will take a long time to set up the right teams in the right races, if its single race mode, then it takes 5-10mins to set up a startlist. You can use single race and leave random fitness on, wouldnt recommend it
3 Stats
As long as the points allocation is good then there wont be an issue. I wouldn't have an update post MSR. If you want 4 then Pre Giro, Pre Tour, Pre Vuelta and end of
season. 4 updates could take a lot of time depending on the no. of players
4 Improving
hvnt done a lot of math but instant question. If you only select 1 stat, there is less than a 1in4 chance of that stat increasing, so the chances are it wont increase
at all in the whole season. Also where does the increase then go? do you then choose, or is it random. I think it will end in chaos. I do like the fact you dont have full control over the stat increase though.
5 Decline
It is a "50%" decline every update, why have an older rider Lets say a stat is 82, after 1 season it could be 58 if you dont want to save it. In 1.5 seasons that will be down to 50. And thats from max.
The whole improve and decline systems are overly complicated and confusing, and the math doesnt seem to work, at least in my head.
6 season
I would equal the no. of race days for WT and CT. A WT team will only need 50 race days per rider, allowing 20 CT race days, a nice balance. You'll need about 144 CT
race days if you follow this pattern, allowing for a vast variety of CT races. Depending on CT squad size you may need to adjust their allotted race days, if you want a
balanced CT
7 WT vs CT
I like the idea of a boost for Youth in CT, but then you would need to lower their starting stat limit. If a youth joins Europcar with MO77. He gains 2points each
update (decent reporter) he will hit 79MO at the end of the season (sort of). If Europcar match 2 goals he gets a stat boost, he will be 80+MO after 1 season. This seems extreme, and he could win the TDF in season 2.
It also seems to make the WT redunant, as you wont get as many points over the season. And you will, if your a certain team, still get a GT ride.
To be honest its basically the PCMCL, which while an interesting and well built, well thought out idea, has not taken off massively yet. We definitely dont need 2 of them.
To be honest its basically the PCMCL, which while an interesting and well built, well thought out idea, has not taken off massively yet. We definitely dont need 2 of them.
Yeah, I agree that it's basicly the PCMCL, but there are some new ideas I like...
Indeed, forgot to include in my own comment: It has to be different from the PCMCL, because it wouldn't be fun otherwise...
Edited by Jesleyh on 20-11-2012 15:02
Yes, I know there are some similarities to PCMCL, which I think is a great game. It's also similar to the PCM games by Cyanide . There are quite some differences and new stuff though. If people are upset that it's too similar, I won't be doing it, that's for sure
I wasn't clear on the update part it seems, there will be reports for each race day. What I meant with updates is the stat changes of the riders, these will happen 4 times each season.
As for the teams, you would keep the riders you currently have on your roster, unchanged. As I tried to explain, there are pros and cons for selecting a big team. I'm not a fan of transfers, as it can confuse people a lot. Definitely no transfers before the season, after the season there could be a transfer period.
you should not quote my whole post, just references, or my name, cause it takes up a lot of space
There are some new additions, but at this stage they dont seem to work or make mathematical sense.
But for me its base idea, role playing a rider/manager, writing reports to gain stat improvements, is just the PCMCL. The differences occur with the Stat Increase/Decrease system, with selecting fitness, and a bit in the calendar.
Perhaps a better suggestion would be to make contact with Francoppell. He might share some of his workings and ideas. Also he seems to have gone quiet there recently, so you might be able to step in and help run that.
We have 4 fantasy seasons and PCMCL. The fantasy seasons are the same people (mostly) in each 4. This and the PCMCL would have the same people (mostly). I just dont see it being different enough to obtain a large enough new player base.
Sounds like an expanded version of PCMCL (being both manager and custom riders). Should be both fun and exciting.
2) Season
Assuming the races will be raced in one-race mode rather than as a carreer/season fitness/form could be adjusted with the column "gene_ilist_bonus_fitness" (PCM11 name) in the DB, that gives form bonuses/penalties for specific months. You could say that each manager was allowed to adjust this for say 5 riders so that they could have +1 and +2 in a max of two months each and the same amount of negative months giving an average of 0. All riders except the chosen ones would then have a flat form throughout the season.
Setting training schedules for all teams in season/career mode would be a killer work-wise
3) Stats
Clear and sounds good, but also sounds like a lot of work...
4) Improving and 5) Decline]
I think the system would be fun and it could work, but it sounds like a lot of work for you "rolling the dice" for each rider four times a season.
6) Season[/b]
There will always be discussions, but just make sure there is a reasonable balance between race days and number of riders on the teams. If race day limit is 55 and each rider has to ride 54 days in average to set full roster for each race it gets a hell of a puzzle for the managers...
Also you will have a lot of work selecting which teams get to race if you want applications for each single race.
7) World Tour vs. Continental team
I think it's an interesting idea assuming that young riders develop better on small teams and older riders keep the level better on larger teams. Sounds like the development will be based on results as well as reports? Then perhaps that bit should be made clearer in the final rules. If the "custom riders" will get rewarded for good results will it then be their own results or the teams results? If the first the riders would have better chances of getting their own chances on Landbouwkredit compared to Sky
8) Any stuff I may have forgotten
If you plan to run for more than one season, you should have a strategy on how "standard" players develope.
To summarize: It sounds very good, but it also sounds like a lot of work and considering you opening
But I don’t want to start a project without it spinning out of control. I don’t want to spend entire evenings working on the database, but I don’t want to do a half-arsed job either. I don’t want to burn out on cycling manager and I don’t want to abandon this game halfway through.
You should consider just how dedicated you are to the project. A game like this takes a lot of work. I suggest you contact some of the manager who currently run (or try to run) custom seasons and hear how much time they spend writing race reports. On top of that you need to consider the time you need for reading reports from say 20 teams with 2 reports each (manager and one custom rider) and assessing how good you think the reports are. And then of course the four yearly updates.
Perhaps a team of report-readers should be assigned. That part can be done without the DB, and you could focus on running the races. A random draw of team report to evaluate should be made for each race to avoid bias as some will rate some types of reports higher than others.
TheManxMissile wrote:
without the ability to transfer any riders
I kinda agree on that one, transfers would be a nice way to form your team a little bit around your two "story riders".
One more question: How would the points system look like? Do you get most of your points for the teams performance, or mainly for the 2 "story riders", or is it like 33%-33%-33%? How did you imagine it?
There will be transfers, just not before the first season. So while it is important to choose your starting team wisely, you can still be building a team later on. If you want to start with a young promising cobbler, starting with Euskaltel might be an unwise move. If you go with Quickstep, you will probably be only bringing water for Boonen in your first season. You could try Accent Jobs, where you have some capable team mates. Maybe Liquigas, and start working on a good cobble team for the future. All up to you
And I didn't fully understand your last question there, are you talking about the few points that be won by achievements?
Ollfardh wrote:
And I didn't fully understand your last question there, are you talking about the few points that be won by achievements?
Alright, I wasn't clear with the question:
I meant the ranking system, which decides the promotions/relegations. Will it be different than the current UCI ranking system, or will the performaces of our 2 riders be more important?
![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
. There are quite some differences and new stuff though. If people are upset that it's too similar, I won't be doing it, that's for sure 
