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protecting
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| dren |
Posted on 03-08-2012 20:52
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Under 23
Posts: 78
Joined: 13-09-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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when a domestique is protecting the leader, in PCM 12 if the group is a bit broken and the leader is in a bad position the domestique makes a big effort for stay in the group leaving the leader alone. it annoys me a lot
in other pcm's it was different but i dont know about pcm 11
i want to know if somebody thinks that this is a good thing because for me looks very stupid |
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| cio93 |
Posted on 03-08-2012 20:55
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World Champion
Posts: 10845
Joined: 29-10-2007
PCM$: 500.00
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PCM 11 was the same, and no, it's not a good thing. It annoys many people.
A way to manually get by that is to lower the protector's effort enough to make him slow down (effort number is colored red).
Edited by cio93 on 03-08-2012 20:56
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| CartofCubic |
Posted on 04-08-2012 09:21
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Under 23
Posts: 96
Joined: 05-08-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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cio93 wrote:
PCM 11 was the same, and no, it's not a good thing. It annoys many people.
A way to manually get by that is to lower the protector's effort enough to make him slow down (effort number is colored red).
The effort of the rider who protects doesn't count, so I think that can't help. |
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| alex valceanu |
Posted on 04-08-2012 09:27
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Domestique
Posts: 486
Joined: 04-07-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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You just gotta stop protecting , use the dot and make him slow down and when he is close to the leader , protect again. Thats how i do . |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 19:45
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Bot Agent
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| tellico |
Posted on 04-08-2012 12:05
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 263
Joined: 13-09-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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alex valceanu wrote:
You just gotta stop protecting , use the dot and make him slow down and when he is close to the leader , protect again. Thats how i do .
Or reduce effort protectors to 0 (protecting option MUST be active in that time). They go back to the leaders but notice that they stay next to leaders and just after increase effort to >0 they go exactly before protecting riders. |
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| Lachi |
Posted on 04-08-2012 21:38
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8516
Joined: 29-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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It is not good. But why do you let your leaders be in a bad position? |
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| Bianconerien |
Posted on 04-08-2012 21:43
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Junior Rider
Posts: 44
Joined: 09-07-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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I actually haven't got problems with that in PCM12 (dont know why)
But in PCM11 i did and it was freakin' annoying. |
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| tellico |
Posted on 05-08-2012 00:37
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 263
Joined: 13-09-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Lachi wrote:
It is not good. But why do you let your leaders be in a bad position?
By accident maybe... But also when the peloton starts in pursuit of an escape, you let the leader to fall and when peloton slows down he return to top. He consumes much less energy than if he were in maintain position.
Such accelerations may cause your helpers to fatigue other leaders especialy if they are on top of peloton. |
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| Lachi |
Posted on 05-08-2012 01:25
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8516
Joined: 29-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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tellico wrote:
... He consumes much less energy ...
Which energy do you mean, the green bar?
How much is "much"? 10% |
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| tellico |
Posted on 05-08-2012 10:40
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 263
Joined: 13-09-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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If maintain position is on 60 only green if more yellow also. Of course yellow regenerate. I dont know how much green others consume. But when stage is long this 10 - 15% green bar is big difference on the last km. Yesterday i won L-B-L with Daniel Martin (hard, PCM Daily DB) only beacause most of the leaders had no helpers and he had one. He won sprint finish with Simon Gerrans and he could not even use the whole red bar.
So i dont have hard numbers but for me tiring opponents and saving energy really works 
EDIT: of course when im talking in last post about fall down i mean fall down within peloton! Fall off from the pack is disaster.
Edited by tellico on 05-08-2012 10:43
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| cio93 |
Posted on 05-08-2012 10:51
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World Champion
Posts: 10845
Joined: 29-10-2007
PCM$: 500.00
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tellico wrote:
Lachi wrote:
It is not good. But why do you let your leaders be in a bad position?
By accident maybe... But also when the peloton starts in pursuit of an escape, you let the leader to fall and when peloton slows down he return to top. He consumes much less energy than if he were in maintain position.
Such accelerations may cause your helpers to fatigue other leaders especialy if they are on top of peloton.
That's what I do as well, but it's more a psychological thing that you know you used as less energy as possible rather than having a big advantage later on, I guess.
Lachi wrote:
tellico wrote:
... He consumes much less energy ...
Which energy do you mean, the green bar?
How much is "much"? 10%
Far less, I would say.
For early chases, you can assume 10-15 km effort with ~175 pulse, if you let him fall back, it's 15-20 km with ~160.
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| tellico |
Posted on 05-08-2012 11:49
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 263
Joined: 13-09-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Out of curiosity I check dyn_cyclist after L-B-L for top 5. Crucial attributes HILL/DOWNH/END/FITNESS (gene_f_lastgreenused):
Martin (me) 77/62/75/93 (47,61)
Gerrans 78/73/78/96 (56,14)
Hesjedal 78/79/77/95 (52,84)
Voeckler 79/78/79/88 (50,81)
Rodriguez 82/68/77/96 (62,47)
Why downhill? Cause stage are mostly hills and downhills, DH is important especially on the last 15km when pace is crazy.
Hard level, so you can add +2 to every opponents attrib except FIT of course.
Notice that diff between first Martin and second Gerrans in green was ca 8,5 which means 8,5% at the start when all have 100 but 17% at the end when they have ca 50% green bar. I think this is significant. And rememeber that Martin was weakest rider.
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| cio93 |
Posted on 05-08-2012 11:57
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World Champion
Posts: 10845
Joined: 29-10-2007
PCM$: 500.00
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Well, hilly classics are always known for the strategy to use the dot over the hills, as the "accordion" effect tires out the riders with "hold position" much more, so if you did that, it doesn't surprise me.
Still, for me it's quite a lot more difficult to win these with weaker riders, as they are often simply too slow in the final uphill sprint and can't split the group earlier.
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| Lachi |
Posted on 05-08-2012 20:54
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8516
Joined: 29-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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tellico wrote:
If maintain position is on 60 only green if more yellow also. Of course yellow regenerate. I dont know how much green others consume. But when stage is long this 10 - 15% green bar is big difference on the last km. Yesterday i won L-B-L with Daniel Martin (hard, PCM Daily DB) only beacause most of the leaders had no helpers and he had one. He won sprint finish with Simon Gerrans and he could not even use the whole red bar.
So i dont have hard numbers but for me tiring opponents and saving energy really works
EDIT: of course when im talking in last post about fall down i mean fall down within peloton! Fall off from the pack is disaster. I asked you how much more they will use. So can you tell me?
But what are you talking about in this thread. It is not possible to lose 10% of the green bar because the peloton chases some escapes. |
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| tellico |
Posted on 06-08-2012 19:37
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 263
Joined: 13-09-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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No, i cant tell you how much more peloton will use energy to chase one specific escape than your leader which has 144 pulse. I can tell you how much you can save green bar (in comparison to other leaders) by whole stage (relatively long) when you protect your leader, use dot with pulse <145, tire opponents and stretching peloton by continuous acceleration and deceleration with your helpers. Cio93 wrote that this is commonly known knowledge so i dont know what can I tell more.
Sorry for google-english.
EDIT: Ok, you are one of the best on this forum so i will try to answer your question. Lower bar, non-protected rider with maintain position 75 effort (top of the pack, ca 15th position). Upper bar - protected rider on dot (<145 pulse as long as possible) with fall-when-fast & up-when-slow strategy. A few AI escapes chasing by pack and 4 or 5 accelerations by my helpers with 99 effort. Edited riders with all stats identical. After half of the 180km stage:
I dont know how much is "much" objectively. For me this is pretty much after half stage (second half is mountains so it can be much  more difficult to precise test).
Edited by tellico on 06-08-2012 21:16
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| Lachi |
Posted on 06-08-2012 22:03
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8516
Joined: 29-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Wow, this really is much.
And I don't like it because it looks like cheating to me if you can save that much green energy. For example when playing online. |
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| gregoryVG |
Posted on 06-08-2012 22:12
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Junior Rider
Posts: 28
Joined: 05-08-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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The only problem with this tactic, when you play on Extreme, it happens quite often, the peloton breaks in 3 pieces or more. If you are at the back of the peloton you're in peloton 3, and you will need to make a lot of effort to return in front. |
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| Lachi |
Posted on 06-08-2012 22:34
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8516
Joined: 29-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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It is about the first half of the stage. Obviously you have to be cautious but I am sure even on extreme this is no problem in the first half of the race. |
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| tellico |
Posted on 06-08-2012 22:42
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 263
Joined: 13-09-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Lachi wrote:
And I don't like it because it looks like cheating to me if you can save that much green energy. For example when playing online.
Yes, I know. But honestly, what we can do against AI which can attacks when he(she?) want (I exaggerate, but you know what I mean). At least I have something to do during the stage. If we cant use dot what we are left, maintain position until last 15km?
I agree with camps, I dont use them, but this... I agree with neverending attacks and +2 to stats on hard but I need some ace in the hole too. Especialy if we all play according to the same rules.
EDIT: in multiplayer game this tactic can be very dangerous if others knows what you are planning
gregoryVG wrote:
If you are at the back of the peloton you're in peloton 3, and you will need to make a lot of effort to return in front.
Agree. I posted it before, fall of the pack is disaster.
Edited by tellico on 06-08-2012 22:52
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