The topic title might be a bit confusing, so I'll try my best to explain my question. I've been playing PCM for the last two months now, trying to figure out how the game works and how to come out on top. I haven't started a carreer yet, I'm currently still practicing using random small tours and races. For reference, I play with Vacansoleil-DCM, with the latest patch and the PCMDaily DB.
My question is about pushing with your team, specifically on a climb or on cobbles, or a combination of the two. I'm talking about various situations: when a star rider attacks on the last stretch before the finish and you need to counterpush, when you are the favourite team and need to catch a breakaway, or when you are simply trying to defend your position in the GC and want to make life hell for the peloton.
I'm talking about the specific situation where at the end of the race, you have only your lead rider left and his lieutenant helper in what's left of the pack. As usual, I try and keep my leading rider as fit as possible up until the last bit of the race. Therefore I want to first spend the energy on my helper first if I want to push right? So, what's the best way to do this?
I've tried a dot push with my lead rider, while my helper is protecting him. This usually blows up all of my helper's energy though. I've also been considering putting my helper on relay at the front of the group, to catch the attacker or breakaway, and have my lead rider stay safe in the group itself on 'hold position.' This usually makes my lead rider consume too much energy though, especially on cobbles. Or instead, it makes him drop to the back of the group, in a bad position for the finish.
On cobbles you want to lower the energy from 70 down to around 50 for most of the race, raising it in the final quater. With your helper i find the best tactic is to relay, then with you main star attack on a non-cobble section, then dot.
Dont bother forcing the pace for a whole stage, just key climbs, cobbles, and if your sprinting the last 20km.
On climbs use your team to relay on the early climbs, so when you hit the final one theres only a small group of 10-15 of the best, and your rider and best helper. Then dot the leader at 80-85, enough to start pulling away, with the helper on protect. The helper will only last a few km, but the energy you save can make all the differnce. When the helper runs out you can dot a bith higher of attack.
Just for clarification, I'm also referring to climbs on mountain stages without cobbles, the ones you find in the tours.
Last night I was practicing the mountain stage in the Criterium International (climb-downhill-climb). The peloton caught the breakaway just at the start of the last climb. Halfway through the stage, the gap was almost 7 minutes, so I decided to help out a bit, using relay on both my sprinter Bozic and Carrara on the downhill sections. I think I cut about 1,5 minutes worth of time, the peloton did the rest.
On the final climb, Andy Schleck attacked and Igor Anton countered. I had my lead rider Mosquera follow him on dot and had two other helpers still protecting him and my lieutenant helper De Gendt. While I did eventually win the stage with Mosquera, he had to pretty much do 75% of the climb by himself, because all the helpers were already exhausted by then.
Could I have been more conservative with my energy if I had done something different? The biggest loss I had was that De Gendt was actually my best TT-rider, and he lost 1.45 because he exhausted couldn't keep up. Is there a way to keep both of them on the tail of Schleck and Anton, while not getting blown up or losing ground?
On climbs use your team to relay on the early climbs, so when you hit the final one theres only a small group of 10-15 of the best, and your rider and best helper. Then dot the leader at 80-85, enough to start pulling away, with the helper on protect. The helper will only last a few km, but the energy you save can make all the differnce. When the helper runs out you can dot a bith higher of attack.
It doesnt seem like you need to be more conservative is you win, but if you want de Gendt in a better place, dont use him to protect, let him climb by himself.
You used the right riders to chase, in a good way
Wiley is giving you good advices i think, important is to realize the fact, that riders like De Gendt should not be able to be on Anton's or Schlecks wheel on mountain-top finish, as they are simply worse on that terrain.
Jump from training to the real career and you will wiser about the tactics with your team in March
Thanks for the advice again guys. I'm glad to hear I'm not doing anything stupid, and that it's just my rider's limits I'm expriencing. In the above example I don't think De Gendt ever had the chance to protect Mosquera, I was too busy with trying to have him stay in the race. In the end, De Gendt finished along with his protector Carrara at 1.45.
About cobbles/hills one more time. I was doing a cobbled/hilly 5 day tour the other day. I think it was 5 Jours de Dunkerque. The toughest stage was one where we would have to climb the same cobbled hill for about 10 times during the stage.
I had my leader Leukemans with his lieutenant Devolder and my other helpers leading the peloton. There were quite a lot of breakaway groups. I started to catch them in the last half of the race, but I noticed the lead in the race too late. It was a single rider, Duque I think, and he had almost an eight minute lead on the peloton! I tried closing the gap on the downhill sections, but it didn't work at all. I had to drive like mad in the last half of the race uphill on the cobbles to try and catch him. The silly thing was, the guy wasn't even good at hills or cobbles, with a max stat of 70. In the end, I had to blow up Devolder to get to around 5 minutes of him, and then had to use Leukemans to close the gap to 3 minutes before I finished. Luckily I had a 4 minute lead on him in the GC, so it wasn't a problem, but I was shocked by how easily Duque could maintain his lead by himself. What was I doing wrong? (apart from not noticing him lol).
During the first half of the race, I would climb the cobbled hills by putting my team on dot 40 at the front of the peloton. This would still pull Leukemans into a break, so I was sort of forced to slow down. Was this a mistake? It did mean I had to dot 70/80 during the last half of the race with my helper and my leaders to close the gap later on.
Edited by ShortsNL on 05-01-2012 13:40
You should pull on the uphill as well as the downhill. If you relay with several riders at the same time, but at a higher than mormal effort, 85-90, then the chase will be be more effective as it will last longer. 5 days of Dunkerque is a hard race, particularly that stage, it can always be avoided in a carrer. Does sound like you chased correctly, just that Duque had a massive lead to begin with.
Sometime if you catch a break to early, then any remaining riders can get a huge lead very quickly, is a major pain in the ass.
You didnt do anything wrong in the early stage, on cobbles groups will form very quickly, and if your at the front they may be small. It happens in all cobbles, Paris-Roubaix, even Kuurne-Brussels-Kuurne
Edited by Wiley on 05-01-2012 13:50
detailed and tough questions you´re asking.
I think, shortie, that u need to consider which helper and which team leader you have in the race and what to expect of them. I´m mostly referring to ur first post.
Should you have a teammate that protects your while he´s chasing the favorite in the front? well I don´t think it matter too much between protect ur leader or actually dot the teammate and have your leader behind him.
I don´t know which level ur playing with (for me it is hard and I´m considering extreme). I see myself as a pretty good player (one year I got 1.600000 euros only in prize bonuses) and I almost always ride conservatively, let it be mountains or cobbles.
I seldom attack more than twice (often it´s just once or nothing) and I try to use up my teammates as much as I can.
If there´s a really steep climb you should never attack, and if your favorites attack, just reel them in with your luxury teammate or you actual leader. If there´s less than 5-6 % then you need to consider which ones are attacking and how long it is left of the mountain stage and which guys are still in the peloton.
My advices if of course only for use if your leader and teammate(s) have over 90 pts in fitness if there´s a good race.
I can see your problem with cobbles, and for me I think, that you think, about the kapelmuur or the bosberg in the tour of flanders. well, it depends on how fit your leader is and if he actually is a favourite. But I usually try to make it all for one. That´ll say, with two good riders I´ll rather come 1st and 10th than 3rd and 7th. Ofc, u might think. But I think u need to realise how important this is. If u want a rider to win in i.e Tour of Flanders and you also have an super domestique with 78 on cobbles, u need to actually sacrifice him a lot. Never let your team leader in front earlier than 20k to the finish. And if your team leader is in the front, that should be either on the one or two last cobbled section part, closer than 12k to the finish or at the actual finish line.
In order to have your leader capable of winning a race like RVL, you have to have him fresh in the end. And in order to do that, you need to keep your luxury teammate fresh until 25k to go. He should reel in all the breakaways from 25k to go (not the exact km but you get it) until the favourites start attacking each other. If your favorite can´t keep up with the attacks after that, you are playing the game wrong. Don´t underestimate the importance of the dot button. Conserve energy for your leader. That should be your motto. It has helped me a lot, and that´s one of the reasons I find the difficulty level "Hard" so easy to play.
Answer to the situation about mosquera and de Gendt. No, U did the right thing. I don´t think De Gendt should have won that race anyway even if you would´ve conserved him more.
About the 5 jours de dunkerque: I´ve experienced that as well in that race. A super solo breakaway... well, if your team is in the protour (the 5 jours is not a protour race) a lot of teams kind of expects u to do most of the work. So u need a lot of good helpers that can sacrifice for the leader, more than usual this time.
What I think the creators of the game wants, and this is only speculation, is that they sometimes want to create this solo breakaways that rarely, but still, exists in real cycling.
Look at Marcus Ljungqvist (He´s swedish just like me), a retired elite cyclist and domestique for CSC when they were around. He won the Tour of Luxembourg with a solo breakaway. Staf Scheirlinckx has won a stage of the giro (almost ten years ago) with a solo, jacky durand in RVL, Rolf Sörensen in TDF. I can keep going, but you know what I mean. It keeps up the reality of the game. That´s just the way it is.
Long post, sorry, but I´ve also got a lot to say don´t know if I actually answered your questions though...
Hmm, I don´t know where the "On the answer to your situation" came from. Maybe it was text that didn´t fit into the limited number of characters in a post, or just a mistake.
Anyway, One more thing. Don´t care about the Crit. National neither 5 jours the dunkerque. Focus on the big races dude, that´s where the money is
No apologies needed, thanks for taking the time to give me all the advice! You definitely have some good points:
-Try bigger races
-Ride conservatively
-Don't attack too much
-Sacrifice teammates for my lead rider
-Keep my lead rider and domestique fresh until the end
-Aggressively use my domestique in the end, and then my lead rider
It's all going to come down to the one mountain stage. It's one steep climb in the middle of the stage, with a big downhill and flat section and a flat finish afterwards. Devolder near the favourites, because he's the best for the Time Trial that follows. If he drops on the mountain, Poels will become leader, and if both drop because of the favourites then Mosquera.
your reasoning is very good about the tactic. Remember, learn from your mistakes.
Sorry for sounding like a bitch now, but I wouldn´t recommend having three or four potential winners in a stage race like tirreno. I don´t know if it´s just because maybe two of them have lousy form and you didn´t thought they would be good in the race. But do not bump all your great riders into one race, that´s just a waste. Have Mosquera doing PN while De Gendt is leader for tirreno, while Devolder is plan B for tirreno and races it becasue he wants some form for the cobbles classics.
