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Does these two real-life tactics work in PCM?
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| cactus-jack |
Posted on 07-08-2011 21:12
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Classics Specialist
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In PCM, the stages that requires the most tactical knowledge is by far the mountain stages. Everybody knows about the dot and roughly how many percent you should dot your rider on, etc. However, I'm wondering how successfull some of the common tactics from the real are in PCM?
1. The Schleck Tactic:
The "Schleck Tactic" is when you have two climbers in a group among some other favourites; your leader and a team mate. You would use your team mate to attack maybe once or twice and let the opponents close the gap, before you make the final attack with your main rider.
- Problem:
Nr. 1; in PCM you can't really attack when the climb is above 7%, your rider will just stand there and gain maybe 4-5 meters before he is exhausted.
Nr. 2: When the other favourites respond to close the gap after your first attack, you can't just sit at the back and ride behind him while he does all the work. In my experience; if the AI attacks on a climb, you have to counter him no matter what.
2. Helper in a breakaway
This tactic is comonly used in the real world; a team sends a decent climber in an early breakaway, near the end of the stage you let your leader try to make a gap back to the back by using a team mate as protection. When the original protecting rider is done for it you still have one man in the breakaway who can take over.
- Problem:
Nr. 1: A rider who is in a breakaway has a tendency to be completely exhausted by the time he is caught. If you let him ride with such a pace that he still has some energy left, he will most likely be caught by the peloton long before your leader can get a gap.
Nr. 2: Strangly enough, a rider who has been in a breakaway and who still has some energy left never seems to be able to maintain the same speed as your leader even though he might be a good climber aswell. Usually he will tire after just a few seconds.
What are your opinions on this; am I wrong or is this spot on? I would really like to hear the opinions of some of the most experience PCM-players here. And everyone else, of course. |
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| cio93 |
Posted on 07-08-2011 21:19
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World Champion
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As a brief response: You're right. Under normal circumstances, none of these tactics give you a significant advantage compared to the normal strategy (dot+protection, attack as late as possible).
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| kumazan |
Posted on 07-08-2011 21:34
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Team Leader
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Having a team mate in a breakaway can work, but not even close as how it does irl. It can help to have someone protecting your leader well into the final climb, but as it is FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE to attack in this game, you're pretty limited when it comes to possible tactics.
If they fixed this I'd be so happy...
Edited by kumazan on 07-08-2011 21:35
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| Lachi |
Posted on 07-08-2011 23:10
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Grand Tour Champion
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You can attack, but you have to time it right. You have to attack if it is not so steep or when it's starting to get flat or even down. But you are only wasting the energy when attacking on steep climbs or downhill.
But the AI tends to chase your rider rather quickly so better only do it if:
- you use the Andy/Fränk tactic
- they cannot catch your rider
- your rider can recover after the attack without been caught |
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| samdiatmh |
Posted on 08-08-2011 06:39
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Breakaway Specialist
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it seems like AI riders are too quick to shed their teammates in this race
oh Cancellara attacks, best make Ballan counter it straightaway
rather than have Hincapie and Kroon drill the pace for a while and catch him that way |
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| Ad Bot |
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| eeyor |
Posted on 08-08-2011 09:28
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The problem with the schleck tactic is that the climbs are too short in the pcm. the climb is over after 2-3 attacks. |
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| cosmic |
Posted on 08-08-2011 11:18
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Stagiare
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It's somewhat annoying how effective attacks on easy parts are though.
In a real life scenario, a guy like Contador would probably do the exact opposite, and wait for a really steep part.
edit: typo
Edited by cosmic on 08-08-2011 11:18
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| pbenoit4 |
Posted on 08-08-2011 21:21
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Free Agent
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The only realistic tactic that I've seen remotely work is the armstrong/ullrich tactics of just raising the pace slightly as the mountain wears on until other riders just drop off or a gap is created. You don't actually attack, but if you time your increase of pace using the dot on the really steep parts, you can sometimes open a gap that forces the AI to work hard to close it up again. |
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| gmart |
Posted on 09-08-2011 03:52
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Amateur
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I second pbenoits strategy. Playing as Garmin, after Criterium de Dauphine, I sent Danielson, Vande Velde, Le Mevel and Hesjedal to Corsica (or one of the other 4 star mountain camps) and give them 10 days of training. With all 3 of them basically being 80+ MO rating, I rotate one of them protecting Danielson and have the other to just drag the field up a climb until it's just contenders left. It's probably not even that necessary, as stated earlier one could probably bring 1 climber and dot+protect and attack late enough (I've never tried).
As fun as PCM is, not much has really changed since I started playing 08, it's gotten a facelift in some areas but is still just as weird and has the same funny phrases (in english at least, I always chuckle at these emails and the commentator).
I don't feel like the AI has any plan at all through an entire stage race other than just attacking on the summit finishes and reeling in breakaways (sometimes) for sprints. Someone in another thread even pointed out that in some stage races, KOM could go to someone who doesn't even have that high a climbing rating just because they are always going into the break.
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| cactus-jack |
Posted on 19-08-2011 21:41
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3936
Joined: 31-07-2009
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I feel the same when it comes to the KOM. In my game the AI will only reel back a rider of he is the leader of the mountain classification. It doesn't matter who is seconds, third og fourth.
I once saw Leopard bring back my rider, who was the leader of the KOM-competition, and then send the only guy in their team with no KOM-points in the next breakaway. |
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| crazyman2008 |
Posted on 19-08-2011 22:36
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Junior Rider
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I played the Dauphiné today. The Dauphine is just a preparation course for me (playing Rabobank) so I simulated the most of it (if I play, I play to win, so I was afraid I would tire Robert too much  ). Last stage is a mountain stage of 114 km. 2 climbs, summit of the first climb around 78 km (meaning still 36k to go). Gesink is 9th overall with Contador in the lead (kind of dominating till than).
I decided to use a different tactic form the normal dot tactic. I protect Gesink with Weening. Than halfway the Glandon, attacked with Weening followed by Gesink. I put Weening in 'protect'mode. Gesink put on dot. They gap increases and by the time they are on the top, the gap is about 2-3 minutes (am not really sure anymore). In the downhilling, I put Weening and Gesink on 'take over shortly'mode. Halfway the final climb Weening is dropped and the peloton exploded. Gesink wins the stage eventually with a gap of 30 seconds on Contador. The rest of the field is scattered and far back. Gesink wins the stage, takes the white jersey and finishes second.
Point to be made, it is possible to attack like Schleck, but I am wondering if it still works if I'm closer to the leaders jersey |
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| laufman |
Posted on 21-08-2011 11:47
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Amateur
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Hello. I don't know how it is in pcm11, because i don't have it yet. But in pcm10 i think things are prety close to real. It's all about the riders. You can't attack on climb with 10% with Evans,Baso... They have too less acceleration, but you can with Contador. The thing is the attack need to be really short, just to gain small gap and then go on with dot. You have to be good positioned like in real, come on front before attack and than make short jump, otherwise you lost your energy yes. I made break like Andy did in real on tdf these year. On vuelta with Evans i was in good form, but i lost some time to Contador and Sanches because i missed their attacks and have bad tactis. I was down 3 minutes in GC and i send 2 riders in break, in good form and solid climbers. 3 climbes to finish I attacked with Evans near the top of the mountain sprint and gain about 1 min on decent. I pulled back brakaway riders and they ride Evans to the top of the second last mountain. Than he did rest of the job and i gained 2 minutes, but all because Sanchez and Contador didn't have enough companiones for chasing. They have to do all the work alone on the second last climb. Next day it was time trial and i had with Evans better stats on TT like both favourites but i lot 2 minutes, because i exhausted Cadel too much in previous day, wtih no rest next day. I think a lot is possible like in really, but there are really small edges betwen succes and failure. With a good team mate or two more for Contador and Sanchez in mountain day i wouldn't have a chance. |
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| McNiel |
Posted on 29-08-2011 11:04
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Junior Rider
Posts: 48
Joined: 12-07-2011
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kumazan wrote:
Having a team mate in a breakaway can work, but not even close as how it does irl. It can help to have someone protecting your leader well into the final climb, but as it is FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE to attack in this game, you're pretty limited when it comes to possible tactics.
If they fixed this I'd be so happy...
I'm pretty new to PCM, so I'm playing on easy difficulty while I learn the ropes.
However, so far I have to agree that attacking has some issues that needs fixing.
Easy difficulty makes for pretty easy sprint finishes so far.
However, even on easy difficulty, there's almost 0 chance of winning if the stage ends with an uphill climb.
I cannot attack on the last hill, since the red/yellow bars burn out in about 5 sec, leaving my rider 10 meters in front with 0 energy left.
Of course this isn't the case for the AI riders.
Countering attacks by AI on that final climb mostly doesn't work either.
Even if my leader is at the front of the peleton and is better in all stats (except a few points in Acc or Flat), it seems that red/yellow bars disappear in a few seconds, after which the AI just leaves my rider in the dust.
Dot+Protect doesn't seem to do much either.
Regardless of effort, I can rarely keep up for more than a few seconds.
Last option: Get on a creak-away!
This doesn't work for me though.
Attacking/countering and joining a break-away (with ANY rider) will make the AI reel in the break-away 99% of the time - even the low talent waterboys are hunted down like they were Contador.
So, getting a decent rider in a break is nearly impossible.
On the other side, 95% of all break-aways where I DON'T join are allowed to get a HUGE lead that mostly last until the finish line unless I reel them in without AI teams helping at all.
It gets really frustrating seing Kreuziger (one of three favourites) dying on that last hill on a stage in Tirreno Adriattco when some useless CT rider with far worse stats attack and blast right past him! 
Edited by McNiel on 29-08-2011 11:05
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| Rasmusen |
Posted on 29-08-2011 12:32
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 340
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hmm with who you try to win mountstages? try contador, then schleck, then evans, even on extreme its not to hard to win with contador. on easy its not to hard to win with a 77 or 79butdont wait last mountain, sometimes put a good downhill guy lets say sanches of rabo up front, 80 downhill, gesink is 61 downhill, let sanches wait gesink and let him lead downhill, though with gesink its possible to win on easy and wait till last mount, but you can try the tactic i mentioned |
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| McNiel |
Posted on 29-08-2011 13:03
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Junior Rider
Posts: 48
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Rasmusen wrote:
hmm with who you try to win mountstages? try contador, then schleck, then evans, even on extreme its not to hard to win with contador. on easy its not to hard to win with a 77 or 79butdont wait last mountain, sometimes put a good downhill guy lets say sanches of rabo up front, 80 downhill, gesink is 61 downhill, let sanches wait gesink and let him lead downhill, though with gesink its possible to win on easy and wait till last mount, but you can try the tactic i mentioned
I was trying with Kreuziger (78 Mountion, 78 Hill and 73 Downhill).
The AI rider has 68 Mountain, 77 Hill and 62 downhill.
I've also tried to attacking before the last climb.
However, in the last 15km there's a lot of uphill-downhill-uphill going on, and every single uphill climb has a dark red section (around 10%?).
So, attacking earlier than the last climb simply drains my rider sooner, after which the leading group catches him at the bottom of the last hill and leaves him for dead 
EDIT:
A strange thing about the stage is, that it's more than 200km long and it has many very difficult climbs. Even so, the peleton is riding fast as hell, and even with 85% effort inside the peleton, Krezugier will have his numbers flashing red on several occasions when going up the hardest climbs. I have no clue how ANY non-star riders even survive that stage
Edited by McNiel on 29-08-2011 13:10
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| Rasmusen |
Posted on 29-08-2011 17:56
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 340
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78 is a nice challange men, what stage you play? or you do a carreer ?, i managed to win ardiden, en alp with sanches on normal mode.have to say it doesnt work everytime.
Also i won with mollema on alp, But i did it with an other rider with my team to make pace, ai doesnt seem to go 4 it in a brakaway,
so atack early on a climb before the last climb with a guy who has good downhill skills en climb skills, dont let him lose all yellow en red. then when he is away preferable with a few others, try to get away with the guy you want to go all the way, let your good downhill guy wait him, nice timing will be if the guy you want to go 4 it reach him on top. then go downhill, put him on stay position, en put the good skilled downhill guy infinity relay, play hem steep 90% less steep 80 or 84% divide it so he doesnt die to soon. actually on alp he has to make it untill the alp.
With sanches en mollema i had a gap of more then 4 min before we rached alp, the have 77 or 76 climb rate
Edited by Rasmusen on 29-08-2011 18:01
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| Rasmusen |
Posted on 29-08-2011 17:58
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 340
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o when his number flash pay attention to him, look if he really drops back, sometimes they doesnt only, there is a change the group brake and he is on the border of it. 62 downhill is not strong enough
Edited by Rasmusen on 29-08-2011 18:00
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| McNiel |
Posted on 29-08-2011 18:36
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Junior Rider
Posts: 48
Joined: 12-07-2011
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It's a career (custom team), on stage 4 of Tirreno-Adriatico.
I just played the same stage a few times, in an attempt to figure out how things work etc., since it confused me how my rider would be beaten by the same AI rider every time, even though my rider has better stats (and even though this particular AI rider isn't even the strongest of the AI riders, he wins the stage every time)
The AI rider doesn't have as good downhill rating as mine, but Team Katusha pulls the peleton hard at the end (every time) with 2 guys - one good uphill, the other with 79 downhill rating, so they will catch up to my guy when I try to attack/break-away on the 2nd last climb
When the numbers are flashing red during the race, my rider is able to keep his position in the peleton (he's also protected, so I have time to react).
However, at the last climb, if I try to counter, and then "Hold position" to try and regain some energy, it will flash red immediately (at 85% effort), and he will be left behind by around 10 other AI riders who counter the first AI guy :/
EDIT: on that last climb, using Hold Position results in the AI rider(s) who attack, gain about 45 sec lead in a matter of 5-10 realtime seconds.
The one time I managed to catch them again, it was with 0 energy left and right before the final sprint...which means all AI riders simply took off again, while my guy looked like he parked his bike
Edited by McNiel on 29-08-2011 18:40
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| Rasmusen |
Posted on 29-08-2011 19:04
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Neo-Pro
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well just won alp huez with kreuz on easy, single stage, form everythink on, tried it with vino, but they chase him also he didnt had enough in the tank, atacked last 8km with kreuz on final climb, so on easy should be possible to win, 4 the stats contador got 2nd |
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| Rasmusen |
Posted on 29-08-2011 19:16
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 340
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if i see the stage, profile the road between the last climb and 1 before is pretyy long, so an early escape is hard i guess. |
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