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ICL20 - General | Scouting | Development
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| Bikex |
Posted on 02-09-2021 11:28
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Team Leader
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It could look something like this (before development process): https://www.mediafire.com/file/iodrno....xlsx/file
I will tweak the formulas a little bit and also change them a little bit depending on the specific stat.
Because of the base stat behind each stat the change can be done very fair. Only slightly more affected are riders with great allround capabilities. I plan to include compensation points into the development. |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 02-09-2021 12:27
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World Champion
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Can't say I like what I'm seeing. You're hitting my (world class  ) leaders kinda hard, while it's supposed to address the subtop.
Furthermore, GVK loses a point in every stat category (literally in every stat, I'm not joking), while for example Degenkolb can keep his 78FL 79SP 80ACC combo.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| cio93 |
Posted on 02-09-2021 13:00
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World Champion
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Well, the WT's subtop riders are the CT's leaders...so that's really risky business if it doesn't remain balanced in the lower division.
Herklotz would lose like 500k of his training again straight away, which I can't say I'm a fan of.
If allround capabilities are this frowned upon, I could've just gone for full climber development and gotten to 82 this season.
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 02-09-2021 14:27
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Directeur Sportif
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Yeah I think the stat changes are the wrong idea tbh.
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 02-09-2021 14:29
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World Champion
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I don’t think I have any riders who can even be classed as subtop so I assume my team is unchanged in that file?
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT]  Xero Racing
5x  x5
2x  x2
2x  x2 |
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| Bikex |
Posted on 02-09-2021 14:50
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You are forgetting that the development still comes on top of that. Also riders are not loosing their training. The changes would affect them either way. All changes would be in a way that the relative strength of a rider in a stat would be conserved.
The difference between how an all-round rider is affected compared to a one-dimensional one is minimal and will be compensated in the development process right after.
I think having these adjustments would be a good way to assure meaningful differences between riders and help the AI. Also it will allow for more freedom during development as it needs to be less restricted.
I'm still thinking about how to do it exactly but I think there'll be definitely be a component during this years' development to push the stat distribution back to a more desired distribution, maybe not as strong as in the uploaded example. |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 21-11-2024 16:57
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| Bikex |
Posted on 02-09-2021 15:01
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To illustrate the problem here is the amount of riders with each of the main stats in each season of ICL:
| MO | 70 | 71 | 72 | 73 | 74 | 75 | 76 | 77 | 78 | 79 | 80 | 81 | 82 | | 2014 | 58 | 56 | 48 | 45 | 33 | 24 | 26 | 23 | 8 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 1 | | 2015 | 86 | 57 | 51 | 62 | 33 | 33 | 25 | 16 | 9 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 2 | | 2016 | 104 | 88 | 63 | 52 | 50 | 31 | 31 | 18 | 9 | 3 | 2 | 0 | 4 | | 2017 | 97 | 101 | 89 | 63 | 52 | 31 | 38 | 18 | 18 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 4 | | 2018 | 93 | 95 | 78 | 78 | 54 | 48 | 37 | 19 | 15 | 5 | 1 | 2 | 6 | | 2019 | 90 | 79 | 83 | 80 | 74 | 54 | 48 | 30 | 17 | 7 | 1 | 2 | 6 | | 2020 | 94 | 106 | 86 | 74 | 77 | 67 | 55 | 33 | 15 | 10 | 2 | 4 | 4 | | - | | HIL | 70 | 71 | 72 | 73 | 74 | 75 | 76 | 77 | 78 | 79 | 80 | 81 | 82 | | 2014 | 107 | 107 | 81 | 79 | 63 | 46 | 25 | 22 | 8 | 6 | 4 | 1 | 0 | | 2015 | 151 | 118 | 103 | 85 | 66 | 44 | 18 | 17 | 7 | 6 | 3 | 1 | 0 | | 2016 | 206 | 152 | 121 | 89 | 69 | 47 | 24 | 19 | 5 | 7 | 3 | 1 | 0 | | 2017 | 241 | 209 | 132 | 107 | 78 | 54 | 27 | 23 | 5 | 10 | 3 | 0 | 0 | | 2018 | 240 | 219 | 179 | 105 | 93 | 51 | 32 | 21 | 6 | 13 | 3 | 0 | 0 | | 2019 | 246 | 242 | 193 | 156 | 95 | 84 | 33 | 22 | 9 | 11 | 6 | 1 | 0 | | 2020 | 282 | 243 | 197 | 189 | 110 | 94 | 38 | 20 | 11 | 10 | 4 | 2 | 0 | | - | | TT | 70 | 71 | 72 | 73 | 74 | 75 | 76 | 77 | 78 | 79 | 80 | 81 | 82 | | 2014 | 78 | 45 | 38 | 38 | 22 | 24 | 16 | 5 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | | 2015 | 79 | 56 | 40 | 30 | 25 | 22 | 17 | 7 | 2 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 1 | | 2016 | 84 | 67 | 49 | 33 | 22 | 26 | 17 | 10 | 5 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 0 | | 2017 | 102 | 74 | 53 | 45 | 25 | 29 | 19 | 11 | 5 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 0 | | 2018 | 84 | 91 | 59 | 50 | 32 | 32 | 18 | 12 | 8 | 2 | 4 | 1 | 0 | | 2019 | 90 | 86 | 74 | 65 | 37 | 42 | 21 | 16 | 8 | 5 | 4 | 0 | 0 | | 2020 | 96 | 78 | 91 | 66 | 58 | 35 | 29 | 16 | 10 | 6 | 3 | 1 | 0 | | - | | SP | 70 | 71 | 72 | 73 | 74 | 75 | 76 | 77 | 78 | 79 | 80 | 81 | 82 | | 2014 | 115 | 77 | 56 | 62 | 43 | 23 | 21 | 9 | 6 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 1 | | 2015 | 128 | 98 | 67 | 55 | 44 | 31 | 18 | 10 | 8 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 1 | | 2016 | 181 | 130 | 83 | 62 | 50 | 31 | 24 | 14 | 7 | 4 | 1 | 3 | 1 | | 2017 | 194 | 166 | 111 | 87 | 43 | 38 | 35 | 19 | 6 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | | 2018 | 235 | 201 | 135 | 92 | 61 | 35 | 35 | 19 | 10 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | | 2019 | 253 | 191 | 161 | 124 | 69 | 51 | 33 | 28 | 12 | 6 | 3 | 4 | 1 | | 2020 | 261 | 202 | 161 | 108 | 56 | 66 | 30 | 20 | 18 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 0 | | - | | COB | 70 | 71 | 72 | 73 | 74 | 75 | 76 | 77 | 78 | 79 | 80 | 81 | 82 | | 2014 | 18 | 22 | 21 | 22 | 10 | 11 | 13 | 9 | 6 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 0 | | 2015 | 23 | 31 | 17 | 16 | 19 | 11 | 11 | 4 | 7 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | | 2016 | 44 | 30 | 20 | 23 | 20 | 11 | 4 | 7 | 8 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 0 | | 2017 | 40 | 42 | 35 | 19 | 19 | 13 | 6 | 7 | 7 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | | 2018 | 60 | 48 | 41 | 20 | 22 | 13 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | | 2019 | 96 | 45 | 45 | 37 | 18 | 21 | 8 | 9 | 6 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | | 2020 | 104 | 63 | 43 | 40 | 38 | 19 | 12 | 7 | 3 | 5 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
The problem is the biggest for MO, TT and SPR where there are around double as many riders with 76+ now compared to the beginning. For Hill and Cobbles the problem is not so much 76+ but also around 73+ the amount of riders is a lot higher. |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 02-09-2021 16:55
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World Champion
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Wouldn't it be better to go upwards instead then? At the moment we're not using 83-84-85 stats ever and 82 only for MO.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| DaveTwoBob |
Posted on 02-09-2021 17:12
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Small Tour Specialist
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If you accept stat inflation is a issue an adjustment to base stat seems the fairest way to address the issue.
As I understand it a reduction is made to the base stat of each stat category, something like a -40 adjustment. If your rider is just into the next stat bracket then they will drop down to the lower stat, but if they are well up in the stat bracket they will not drop down to the lower stat.
Development gives managers a chance to rebalance the base stats. I did that at the beginning of this season to get Bardet to HILL 81.
I am happy to support Bikex in making this change if he feels it will improve the quality of racing.
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| Ripley |
Posted on 03-09-2021 07:47
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Classics Specialist
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That's a bigger change than I expected. I fear It carries some risks, wages or number of race days per rider might not match up well with the new reality.
And to be honest, the tables don't convince me that there's anything wrong with the current db. Reducing the (base) stats across the board doesn't really change much, either, you still have just about the same number of equally skilled riders, just one (real stat) level lower.
Having said that, I trust Bikex, if he thinks it will make the ICL better, I'll happily go along.
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| dominox |
Posted on 03-09-2021 11:36
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Protected Rider
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Oh wow, stat difference is quite massive to be honest. And even post development, it won't change much to the previous state as you still need to spend quite a lot to gain 1 stat increase on specific terrain. My team after changes looks like mid ranked CT division team, lol
On the other hand this is why I still play ICL and quit mid first season in MG. ICL is more of team creation and it's development over seasons, and DB is actually quite good comparing to MG DB (not overvalued stats like 85 over the DB, riders that looks quite good and not 85 in MO, 76 in HI and low 70 anywhere else, lol; I sometimes look into it, even MG discussion threads, I just don't comment since I'm not in it anymore). Meanwhile MG is more of interaction between players/users than actual cycling game.
I agree if we don't want DB similar to MG, we kinda need to look into raw stats sooner than later, but we still have quite a lot of room tbh. |
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| Shonak |
Posted on 04-09-2021 21:48
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Tour de France Champion
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Thanks for discussing this issue bikex upfront and communicating it in such a transparent fashion.
I am ok with the current DB. I would prefer a switch to a superior PCM version (which one I don't know, I can buy the version that is required no worries) and only then see how we may adjust the DB. At the moment, WT races work well except for cobbles and time trials. CT races only work on hilly and sprint races, major issues on mountain stages (astronomical gaps) and cbs (sometimes no gaps at all in previous years, except for Phinney / Senechal dominance this season).
If PCM15 remains the version for the foreseeable future I would like to see changes that counter the MT issue in CT and the TT/CB issue in WT. Think Hill and Mountain work well in WT and in case of change the DB should not worsen.
Compensation for the stat loss is necessary especially ppl like cio, vali or dominox who put in high amounts in training last year to be competitive for the next few years.
All in all, I would be against stat adjustment and would prefer switch to other pcm version with better ai.
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| krisa |
Posted on 08-09-2021 19:00
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Classics Specialist
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I kinda disagree with this new stats. My leaders are getting killed like this just because I choose to just have the bare minimum for the top stats and liked to spend on increasing other stat points. If I look at Aru he just looses more then 1.2 points average while some others lose 0.4 I mean I liked the way it was although there might be too many mediocre riders
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| Bikex |
Posted on 14-09-2021 00:10
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Team Leader
Posts: 7255
Joined: 25-08-2012
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Riders Development
Download: Link
Open Office: tbd (activate macros)
Time for the last task of ICL 20, decide the training for your riders.
If you do not care about how development exactly works, you can skip to the part where the file is explained.
Development Mechanics
Behind each stat there is a number that is between 0 and 1000. A basestat of 1000 will give the rider a stat of 85, 0 50. Which basestat is required for which stat can be seen in table 3.
Depending on the training you choose for a rider, there will be points added to his basestats. Each rider has 3 hidden development point pools, randomly assigned depending on his potential. Each season a rider gets points out of these pools to use for development: Points #1,#2,#3. The amount of points depends on various factors like age, potential, belonging to a dev team, race days used, success during the season, points left in pool.
Points #1 will be used for the main training you choose out of 7 options: Stage Race, Mountains, Time Trial, Sprint, Hills, Cobbles, Flat. Getting many points here will result in a high achievable main stat.
Points #2 will be used for a secondary focus you choose. The available secondary focusses depend on the first choice you did. Each choice has a standard option which will boost all backup stats. If you choose something else you might loose some points of your main stat gained from Points #1. For your secondary training you can choose a rate from 1-5 determining how much the rider wants to focus on his secondary choice. 5 being the maximum. If you choose anything lower, the remaining points will distributed according to the Standard training of your choice.
Points #3 are points spent on your Rider Personality. This influences the energy stats (Sta, Res, Rec), as well as Dh and Fi. You have 6 different choices there.
All of these points are rather arbitrary numbers and won't be directly converted into points -> 1 dev point <> 1 base stat point.
It is now possible that riders loose some base stat points (apart from general decline), before development. All these points lost are reassigned during. This influences older riders more than younger riders. This should enable riders to refocus slightly and bring some dynamics into the database. This way it is also possible to slightly control how your rider declines naturally. This also means you get to do training choices for each of the riders on your team.
In some cases it can happen that riders that have not reached their age of decline yet can't maintain all of their stat points. This can be a result of poor performances during the season or settings implemented to keep the database balanced. This allows in return to give some developing talents more points so they develop quicker.
The Development File
As always, begin by adding your team ID into C2 in the "Team" tab. In "Teams" you can check for your ID in case you have forgotten.
In "Riders" you will see all your riders listed with their points to spend. You can do your development choices here like in the past. If you want to do that read the part at the end.
Go to the "Cockpit" tab to use the Development Cockpit. Here you find much useful information on your riders while choosing their training. In row 11 you'll find 5 drop down selectors. Use them for your training choices. Start by selecting your first cyclist in the first selector. Information on him will appear. In the #1 selector you can choose the riders main training. In the #2 selector you can select the riders secondary training choice. In the R selector you can choose the 1-5 rate the rider is focusing on his secondary training. Even if selecting 5 the rider should usually progress stronger in your main choice. Exception could happen, if a rider gets much more #2 points than #1 points. In the P selector choose from the 6 possible rider personalities.
Information displayed in the Development cockpit:
Suggested: Suggests an automatically generated training plan for the rider. If you want to skip selecting trainings for some riders, these will be used for their development.
Riders Stats: In row 2 you see the riders actual stats. After selecting a training for him, they'll change to reflect the change. You can tick the "Hide Progress" box to show the old stats again.
Statpoints: There are 4 rows showing riders basestats: "Old Statpoints" showing the riders basestats of last season, "Change" will show the added points depending on your training selections, "New Statpoints" is obvious then, "Missing" are the points missing for the rider to improve this stat by 1.
Age(2019), Potential and Age of Decline of the rider are shown in V2-V4.
Statpoints: Below that you can see the statpoints to spend on a riders development. If #3 is 0, you do not need to choose any personality. If #2 is 0 still choose a secondary focus, as a small portion of #1 also goes there.
When done, check the "Riders" tab to make sure you have selected training for all the riders you want to select it for. Afterwards fo to the "PM" tab and send me columns B-F in a table format as a PM.
You do not like the cockpit? There is still the option to do your development in the "Riders" tab. Read on if you want to do that. In U-W you see the proposed trainings. The standard rate of the secondary choice is always 2. In column Z put 1-7 to get your first choice. In column ZZ your choice will pop up. In column AB put your secondary choice, by putting 1-x. As there are different amount of secondary choices depending on your first choice, x can be different values. You have to try it out or check the "Trainings" tab. To help you in column AB you'll see your choice. Next change the rate of the influence of your Training#2 selection. Put a number between 1 and 5 in column AD. In column AE put anything between A-F for your personality choice. It will appear in column AF. Note: If you have used the selector before you might see a Personality choice in column AG. Anything you put in AE will overwrite that.
Important: Don't try to sort the tables in this file! This will only mess up the file. It seemed like too much work for me to fix this issue, it's part of the file since the very first season. The only thing you can do to change the order of your riders is to sort in the "DB" tab only before(!) starting your development!
Edited by Ripley on 15-09-2021 09:04
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| Bikex |
Posted on 14-09-2021 00:11
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Team Leader
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Important change for development teams: Each team is allowed 2 riders above 72.0 AVG. One of which can be max 73.0 AVG and one 73.5. |
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| cio93 |
Posted on 14-09-2021 02:02
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World Champion
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Well, that really changes the entire U23 landscape quite significantly.
Will riders of similar strength to last year's top riders get compensated in the 2022 development for not scoring to the same extent?
Or was this the worst possible moment to pick up a top talent.
Also, is there any chance to get an early indication regarding disbandments? That's obviously a crucial decision for me.
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| Shonak |
Posted on 14-09-2021 07:26
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15615
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Best file of the year.
I like the upgrade for U23. At the moment there are way too many 71-72avg talents so results are super random and usually favor teams that have many of them by maximising their scoring. By increasing the stat range for all teams, hope would be that the U23 becomes more competitive and less random.
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| DaveTwoBob |
Posted on 14-09-2021 07:47
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2433
Joined: 07-07-2013
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Interesting change, I love the way you keep moving the game along Bikex,
I have been guilty of giving riders less than ideal development to keep them under the 72 cap so this is a welcome development.
It could lead to a rider dominating a particular parcour making the competition a bit more open to teams who are not deliberately dominating the U23 division (who me?).
Now time to start endless adjustments in my favourite spreadsheet in the world 
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| Ripley |
Posted on 14-09-2021 08:05
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3341
Joined: 25-11-2014
PCM$: 300.00
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Yeah, the dev file, I love it! Though at first glance Tao Hart won't make it to MO 78 (again) and Dibben won't make it to COB 77 (again).
Interesting change to the U23. It would allow me to relegate Diederich to the U23 (depending on his development) where he'd be more useful than in the main team.
@cio: I don't think it'll make much of a difference and your big talent should profit from the change down the road.
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| dominox |
Posted on 14-09-2021 18:33
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Protected Rider
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My favourite file in the whole season, yay!
It was all about Komisarek for me and I'll be damned, his development files looks somewhat intriguing, I can do whole lotta things and twist him whole different ways. Seems like heavy investment was really worth it. |
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