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PCMdaily DB Stat Discussion - PCM15
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 08-09-2015 13:48
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Ollfardh wrote:
Well now we're speculating of course, but if Dumoulin hadn't crashed out of le Tour, I'd say he wouldn't even get a top 10 there. The fact remains, the Vuelta is about freshness. Both in game as in real life, there's always someone who gets a good results becuase the rest is tired and he's not.
Let's assume all riders results are valid and no one was doping. Horner did not beat Nibali because he was the better climber, but because he hasn't raced much in 2013. One year earlier, Rodriguez completely collapsed toward the end and had to give victory to a fresh Contador. Cobo and Froome was just weird, but again, two riders with very low racedays.
I would say the same is happening now with Dumoulin, he's in good shape, preparing for the worlds, while all his competitors have already riden Giro or Tour. Aru, Landa, Quintana and Valverde had a really tough time there as well. I think 78 should be enough for Dumoulin. He can compete for the podium if you get his fitness right, but he can't come close to the top riders in single race mode.
All this assuming stats are based on career mode of course.
As you say when Horner won he hadn't raced a GT that year and Nibali had gone deep in the Giro, but Horner still had credentials as a climber of real ability so it really wasn't a shock that he won in the final week despite Nibali's constant attacks on the Angliru.
Dumoulin is quite different and it's speculation how he would've raced in the Tour and how he would do in the Vuelta if the other top riders were fresh. But despite whether the other riders are fresh or not 79 guarantees him a greater realism imo based on how he's ridden in the Vuelta so far than 78 does. If the game treats all the riders with the same freshness Aru, Landa, Quintana and Valverde are all going to to outclimb him anyway, unless their race form and daily form are poor. |
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| AndreasEng |
Posted on 09-09-2015 10:34
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Free Agent
Posts: 108
Joined: 25-09-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
Well now we're speculating of course, but if Dumoulin hadn't crashed out of le Tour, I'd say he wouldn't even get a top 10 there. The fact remains, the Vuelta is about freshness. Both in game as in real life, there's always someone who gets a good results becuase the rest is tired and he's not.
Let's assume all riders results are valid and no one was doping. Horner did not beat Nibali because he was the better climber, but because he hasn't raced much in 2013. One year earlier, Rodriguez completely collapsed toward the end and had to give victory to a fresh Contador. Cobo and Froome was just weird, but again, two riders with very low racedays.
I would say the same is happening now with Dumoulin, he's in good shape, preparing for the worlds, while all his competitors have already riden Giro or Tour. Aru, Landa, Quintana and Valverde had a really tough time there as well. I think 78 should be enough for Dumoulin. He can compete for the podium if you get his fitness right, but he can't come close to the top riders in single race mode.
All this assuming stats are based on career mode of course.
As you say when Horner won he hadn't raced a GT that year and Nibali had gone deep in the Giro, but Horner still had credentials as a climber of real ability so it really wasn't a shock that he won in the final week despite Nibali's constant attacks on the Angliru.
Dumoulin is quite different and it's speculation how he would've raced in the Tour and how he would do in the Vuelta if the other top riders were fresh. But despite whether the other riders are fresh or not 79 guarantees him a greater realism imo based on how he's ridden in the Vuelta so far than 78 does. If the game treats all the riders with the same freshness Aru, Landa, Quintana and Valverde are all going to to outclimb him anyway, unless their race form and daily form are poor.
But this is also judging from 1 race... In Tour de Suisse he got dropped by Miguel Lopez from Astana and Jan Hirt from CCC on the biggest mountain stage. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 09-09-2015 20:16
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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After an amazing TT by Aru's standards any ideas on what his TT should be now? |
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| bob7 |
Posted on 09-09-2015 20:32
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Stagiare
Posts: 220
Joined: 27-01-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Just one stage. Remeber Giro ? |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 09-09-2015 21:09
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Exactly he finished almost 3 mins down to Contador and now he finishes 1:53 to Dumoulin meaning that there's no consistency to his performance. He performed far better than expected and if Dumoulin has developed into a three week rider then there is no reason why Aru's TT can't have improved in a short time period as well. |
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| bob7 |
Posted on 09-09-2015 21:18
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Stagiare
Posts: 220
Joined: 27-01-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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May be, we'll see in another TT. I got Aru with 70 (like in v1.6). But I don't know what about Valverde. It's next TT, when he performed very well. 73 may be too low for him. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 09-09-2015 21:35
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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bob7 wrote:
May be, we'll see in another TT. I got Aru with 70 (like in v1.6). But I don't know what about Valverde. It's next TT, when he performed very well. 73 may be too low for him.
Yes Valverde is a pretty good TT rider these days and I guess 74 might be a bit better for him now. as he's about 1 point better than Quintana.
Majka's 73 but he had a bad day and Aru at 70 I now think is too low. The nearest rider to Aru was Cummings today and he has 73. Also Sicard he did well today has a really low TT at 67 needs to be higher finished in 7th spot and when I saw that thought it was a printing mistake at first, Purito though rode like a 66 TT rider so that's correct for him.
I know there are a lot of considerations for a TT like riders defending their position near the top of the GC, good and bad form, wind and course length and today was probably a medium length TT. |
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 10-09-2015 17:33
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
Joined: 13-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Aru may be fine with 72 in TT??? |
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| Forza-Diavolo |
Posted on 10-09-2015 19:45
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Stagiare
Posts: 197
Joined: 22-07-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Tom Dumoulin and Jesper Hansen MO? Tom 78, Jesper 75? |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 23:21
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Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
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| Hasbro45 |
Posted on 10-09-2015 19:58
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Amateur
Posts: 7
Joined: 25-11-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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I don't know if this is the right topic and if this has to do anything with the stats, but on grand tours i get gaps btw 1st and 10th place like 40-50minutes, it's like every stage the favourites are in 10minutes. Is this actually normal? I cant remember if the old pcms were the same. Maybe a closer stats will do the trick? |
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| Dusen |
Posted on 10-09-2015 20:02
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1173
Joined: 30-07-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Hasbro45 wrote:
I don't know if this is the right topic and if this has to do anything with the stats, but on grand tours i get gaps btw 1st and 10th place like 40-50minutes, it's like every stage the favourites are in 10minutes. Is this actually normal? I cant remember if the old pcms were the same.
Yeah, the gaps between second tier GC guys and the best, are for the most like that. So nothing unusual about that  |
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| Unclemax |
Posted on 10-09-2015 20:03
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Amateur
Posts: 19
Joined: 06-08-2015
PCM$: 200.00
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I sincerely apologize if there already was a discussion regarding the sprinters' statistics, but 41 pages is just a little bit too long to go through.
In my opinion, the sprinters' statistics are off, not by a bunch, but still...
Some things I would adjust:
Kittel: 84 --> 83 (Despite the fact that he has performed better last year, I do not think he is better than the living legend
Cavendish, Cavendish' palmares is too expanded not to be considered the best sprinter of the world, along with Kittel.)
Greipel: 81 --> 82 (Greipel has won 4 stages this TdF, of course, the game was already out at that point, thus I can't blame Cyanide for that.)
Kristoff: 82 --> 80 (He's won two stages in the GT in his entire career, does that make him a better sprinter than Greipel?
I feel he's overrated a tad.)
Sagen: 79 --> 80 (He hasn't been receiving those four green jerseys only by going into the breakaways.)
Démare: 80 --> 78 (Never won any GT stages, don't understand why he's rated so high.)
Bouhanni: 81 --> 80 (Won the points classification in the Giro 2014, won three stages there and won two stages in the Vuelta that year, but he hasn't been able to beat any of the bigger sprinters in the TdF, therefore, I'd gently degrade him.)
Hope to see some argued opinions from other PCM'ers. |
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 10-09-2015 20:13
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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Unclemax wrote:
I sincerely apologize if there already was a discussion regarding the sprinters' statistics, but 41 pages is just a little bit too long to go through.
In my opinion, the sprinters' statistics are off, not by a bunch, but still...
Some things I would adjust:
Kittel: 84 --> 83 (Despite the fact that he has performed better last year, I do not think he is better than the living legend
Cavendish, Cavendish' palmares is too expanded not to be considered the best sprinter of the world, along with Kittel.)
Greipel: 81 --> 82 (Greipel has won 4 stages this TdF, of course, the game was already out at that point, thus I can't blame Cyanide for that.)
Kristoff: 82 --> 80 (He's won two stages in the GT in his entire career, does that make him a better sprinter than Greipel?
I feel he's overrated a tad.)
Sagen: 79 --> 80 (He hasn't been receiving those four green jerseys only by going into the breakaways.)
Démare: 80 --> 78 (Never won any GT stages, don't understand why he's rated so high.)
Bouhanni: 81 --> 80 (Won the points classification in the Giro 2014, won three stages there and won two stages in the Vuelta that year, but he hasn't been able to beat any of the bigger sprinters in the TdF, therefore, I'd gently degrade him.)
Hope to see some argued opinions from other PCM'ers.
GT stages are just the tip of the iceberg. You can't rate sprinters only on GT stage wins.
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 10-09-2015 22:29
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Unclemax wrote:
I sincerely apologize if there already was a discussion regarding the sprinters' statistics, but 41 pages is just a little bit too long to go through.
In my opinion, the sprinters' statistics are off, not by a bunch, but still...
Some things I would adjust:
Kittel: 84 --> 83 (Despite the fact that he has performed better last year, I do not think he is better than the living legend
Cavendish, Cavendish' palmares is too expanded not to be considered the best sprinter of the world, along with Kittel.)
Greipel: 81 --> 82 (Greipel has won 4 stages this TdF, of course, the game was already out at that point, thus I can't blame Cyanide for that.)
Kristoff: 82 --> 80 (He's won two stages in the GT in his entire career, does that make him a better sprinter than Greipel?
I feel he's overrated a tad.)
Sagen: 79 --> 80 (He hasn't been receiving those four green jerseys only by going into the breakaways.)
Démare: 80 --> 78 (Never won any GT stages, don't understand why he's rated so high.)
Bouhanni: 81 --> 80 (Won the points classification in the Giro 2014, won three stages there and won two stages in the Vuelta that year, but he hasn't been able to beat any of the bigger sprinters in the TdF, therefore, I'd gently degrade him.)
Hope to see some argued opinions from other PCM'ers.
Well these are what I have in my DB and to be fair I'm pretty happy with them. Obviously a sprinter can't have the same level of form throughout the year and peaks at different times. Degenkolb hasn't done so well in GT's this year but he's much more of a classics sprinter like Kristoff anyway, with a big endurance to do it after long hard races so keeping them at around 80-81 is pretty realistic. Sagan might be worth going back to 80 but he does already have an ACC that matches the very best so maybe not.
I also view ACC almost as important for a sprinter as his main stat which is why I've put it here after the main sprint stat, some of these ACC stats might need to be looked at.
Marcel Kittel 83 83
Mark Cavendish 82 83
Andre Greipel 82 80
Alexander Kristoff 81 79
Nacer Bouhanni 80 80
John Degenkolb 80 80
Peter Sagan 79 83
Elia Viviani 79 78
Giacomo Nizzolo 78 78
Sacha Modolo 78 79
Arnaud Demare 78 78
Bryan Coquard 78 80
Andrea Guardini 78 79 |
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| sssolid20 |
Posted on 11-09-2015 12:11
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Amateur
Posts: 22
Joined: 05-06-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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dumoulin
mon 78
hill 78 |
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| Unclemax |
Posted on 11-09-2015 16:16
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Amateur
Posts: 19
Joined: 06-08-2015
PCM$: 200.00
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Paul23 wrote:
Unclemax wrote:
I sincerely apologize if there already was a discussion regarding the sprinters' statistics, but 41 pages is just a little bit too long to go through.
In my opinion, the sprinters' statistics are off, not by a bunch, but still...
Some things I would adjust:
Kittel: 84 --> 83 (Despite the fact that he has performed better last year, I do not think he is better than the living legend
Cavendish, Cavendish' palmares is too expanded not to be considered the best sprinter of the world, along with Kittel.)
Greipel: 81 --> 82 (Greipel has won 4 stages this TdF, of course, the game was already out at that point, thus I can't blame Cyanide for that.)
Kristoff: 82 --> 80 (He's won two stages in the GT in his entire career, does that make him a better sprinter than Greipel?
I feel he's overrated a tad.)
Sagen: 79 --> 80 (He hasn't been receiving those four green jerseys only by going into the breakaways.)
Démare: 80 --> 78 (Never won any GT stages, don't understand why he's rated so high.)
Bouhanni: 81 --> 80 (Won the points classification in the Giro 2014, won three stages there and won two stages in the Vuelta that year, but he hasn't been able to beat any of the bigger sprinters in the TdF, therefore, I'd gently degrade him.)
Hope to see some argued opinions from other PCM'ers.
GT stages are just the tip of the iceberg. You can't rate sprinters only on GT stage wins.
Certainly not, but it is definitely more than just the top of the iceberg.
Kristoff, Degenkolb, Bouhanni, Démare, Viviani... how many times have they been able to beat Cavendish, Kittel, Greipel or Sagan in a sprint that would be played at level "Extreme" in PCM?
In other words, in real life, mianly in the TdF? |
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| Bugno1979 |
Posted on 12-09-2015 01:58
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Amateur
Posts: 18
Joined: 28-05-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Hi guys, what do you think about Ulissi sprint and acc? I think 70 + 79 |
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 12-09-2015 06:23
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
Joined: 21-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Name - Sprint stats - ACC stats
Marcel Kittel 83 82
Andre Greipel 83 80
Peter Sagan 81 81
Mark Cavendish 81 81
Alexander Kristoff 80 80
Nacer Bouhanni 80 79
John Degenkolb 80 79
Elia Viviani 79 79
Bryan Coquard 78 80
Andrea Guardini 78 79
Arnaud Demare 78 79
Edited by Arberg27 on 12-09-2015 15:10
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| gravus |
Posted on 12-09-2015 11:41
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Junior Rider
Posts: 40
Joined: 27-08-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Gaviria 78sp 79acc? |
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| 75alex |
Posted on 12-09-2015 11:47
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Amateur
Posts: 6
Joined: 01-07-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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He is 21 and he just beat Greipel on the Tour Of Britain so it might be justified but I don't know him otherwise |
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