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Le Tour 09: Stage 21: Montereau-Fault-Yonne - Paris Champs-Élysées
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| KurtinSC |
Posted on 28-07-2009 20:48
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Shooting Star wrote:
That is all circumstances. If Hushovd had more help from his teammates, he most likely would have had more points. If he wasn't hindered before the sprint at Champs-Élysées, he most likely would have had more points. Cavendish didn't beat all those other sprinters on his own. He had a whole team to help him.
Thor had half a team... and the whole team once Sastre was out of it. Playing the "what if" game is fine... but the facts are:
1) Thor won.
2) The margin was less then the points he gained by Cav's DQ.
He's the winner... but it's a weak win. A judgement call from the officials gave him the points win... not his performance on the road. This won't change the records any more then the 200m results at the olympics will not reflect the guys who got DQ'd. But it's hard to view Thor as being the better rider... he was just on the lucky end of an officials decision.
Perhaps you view Thor as being a better "points" rider in the tour. I don't see it. |
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| boork |
Posted on 28-07-2009 20:54
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KurtinSC wrote:
Thor had half a team... and the whole team once Sastre was out of it. Playing the "what if" game is fine... but the facts are:
1) Thor won.
2) The margin was less then the points he gained by Cav's DQ.
He's the winner... but it's a weak win. A judgement call from the officials gave him the points win... not his performance on the road. This won't change the records any more then the 200m results at the olympics will not reflect the guys who got DQ'd. But it's hard to view Thor as being the better rider... he was just on the lucky end of an officials decision.
Perhaps you view Thor as being a better "points" rider in the tour. I don't see it.
Could Thor have gotten more points then he did on the stage where Cavendish broke the rules? |
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| Shooting Star |
Posted on 28-07-2009 21:12
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KurtinSC wrote:
Shooting Star wrote:
That is all circumstances. If Hushovd had more help from his teammates, he most likely would have had more points. If he wasn't hindered before the sprint at Champs-Élysées, he most likely would have had more points. Cavendish didn't beat all those other sprinters on his own. He had a whole team to help him.
Thor had half a team... and the whole team once Sastre was out of it. Playing the "what if" game is fine... but the facts are:
1) Thor won.
2) The margin was less then the points he gained by Cav's DQ.
He's the winner... but it's a weak win. A judgement call from the officials gave him the points win... not his performance on the road. This won't change the records any more then the 200m results at the olympics will not reflect the guys who got DQ'd. But it's hard to view Thor as being the better rider... he was just on the lucky end of an officials decision.
Perhaps you view Thor as being a better "points" rider in the tour. I don't see it.
Did you only watch the last 200m of every stage? Did you even watch the Tour at all? Thor didn't get any help from his teammates. Cav on the other hand, had the whole team to back him up. That's not to say he wasn't the superior sprinter. Cause he was, by a mile. |
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| KurtinSC |
Posted on 28-07-2009 22:08
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Shooting Star wrote:
KurtinSC wrote:
Shooting Star wrote:
That is all circumstances. If Hushovd had more help from his teammates, he most likely would have had more points. If he wasn't hindered before the sprint at Champs-Élysées, he most likely would have had more points. Cavendish didn't beat all those other sprinters on his own. He had a whole team to help him.
Thor had half a team... and the whole team once Sastre was out of it. Playing the "what if" game is fine... but the facts are:
1) Thor won.
2) The margin was less then the points he gained by Cav's DQ.
He's the winner... but it's a weak win. A judgement call from the officials gave him the points win... not his performance on the road. This won't change the records any more then the 200m results at the olympics will not reflect the guys who got DQ'd. But it's hard to view Thor as being the better rider... he was just on the lucky end of an officials decision.
Perhaps you view Thor as being a better "points" rider in the tour. I don't see it.
Did you only watch the last 200m of every stage? Did you even watch the Tour at all? Thor didn't get any help from his teammates. Cav on the other hand, had the whole team to back him up. That's not to say he wasn't the superior sprinter. Cause he was, by a mile.
I'm sorry... but that's a laugh. Thor had plenty of help. Haussler, Klier, Lancaster and Roulston weren't there for Sastre... they were there for Thor.
Was Cav's team better? Yeah... you could argue Columbia is the best team in cycling. And he did have the whole team (similar to what Thor had at Credit Agricolae). But let's not talk like Thor was all by his lonesome and Cav had a full team.
Thor grabbed Cav's wheel and used his team to get second place rather then use his own. He used his own once... and Cav came from behind and passed him.
I'm not sure what you think Thor having the full team would have accomplished. He wouldn't have won any more sprints... Cav showed he was capable of passing Thor from behind in the sprints. There weren't any breaks he would have gotten his team to pull back that didn't end in a sprint anyway. And having 8 guys block the wind isn't all that much better then having 3-4 guys do so.
Had their roles been reversed... I don't see there being a whole lot of difference in results. Instead of Columbia leading out Cav... they'd lead out Thor... and Cav would have passed him in the sprint. He showed he could do that in this tour as well as win from out front.
Cav won when delivered by his leadout close to the line. He won when delivered far from the line. He won after a Cat 2 climb. He won on an uphill sprint. He won without a train starting behind other sprinters. He won in a sprint with cobbles near the finish. Perhaps it wouldn't have been as easy without his team. Maybe there wouldn't have been as many sprint finishes as Columbia often did all the work and required a strong team to do that. But I dont' see Thor finishing ahead of Cav in any of those sprints regardless of who was on what team. Cav won in too many different ways. |
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| KurtinSC |
Posted on 28-07-2009 22:12
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boork wrote:
KurtinSC wrote:
Thor had half a team... and the whole team once Sastre was out of it. Playing the "what if" game is fine... but the facts are:
1) Thor won.
2) The margin was less then the points he gained by Cav's DQ.
He's the winner... but it's a weak win. A judgement call from the officials gave him the points win... not his performance on the road. This won't change the records any more then the 200m results at the olympics will not reflect the guys who got DQ'd. But it's hard to view Thor as being the better rider... he was just on the lucky end of an officials decision.
Perhaps you view Thor as being a better "points" rider in the tour. I don't see it.
Could Thor have gotten more points then he did on the stage where Cavendish broke the rules?
No.
Before the DQ, Thor got 12 points, Cav got 13. They were #1 and #2 of the main group, the break won the stage comfortably.
The best result Thor could have hoped for was to pass Cav... and get 13 points with Cav having 12.
The DQ gave Thor 13 and Cav 0.... for a 14 point swing.
But anyone with a shread of honesty would tell you Thor wasn't going to pass Cav. Cav was easily able to beat Thor... he was trying to ride just fast enough to finish ahead while going as slow as possible to try to get Hincapie in yellow.
At worst, if Cav had misjudged, it would have been a 2 point swing. Instead it was 14... and gave Thor the green. |
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| Shooting Star |
Posted on 28-07-2009 22:24
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KurtinSC wrote:
Shooting Star wrote:
KurtinSC wrote:
Shooting Star wrote:
That is all circumstances. If Hushovd had more help from his teammates, he most likely would have had more points. If he wasn't hindered before the sprint at Champs-Élysées, he most likely would have had more points. Cavendish didn't beat all those other sprinters on his own. He had a whole team to help him.
Thor had half a team... and the whole team once Sastre was out of it. Playing the "what if" game is fine... but the facts are:
1) Thor won.
2) The margin was less then the points he gained by Cav's DQ.
He's the winner... but it's a weak win. A judgement call from the officials gave him the points win... not his performance on the road. This won't change the records any more then the 200m results at the olympics will not reflect the guys who got DQ'd. But it's hard to view Thor as being the better rider... he was just on the lucky end of an officials decision.
Perhaps you view Thor as being a better "points" rider in the tour. I don't see it.
Did you only watch the last 200m of every stage? Did you even watch the Tour at all? Thor didn't get any help from his teammates. Cav on the other hand, had the whole team to back him up. That's not to say he wasn't the superior sprinter. Cause he was, by a mile.
I'm sorry... but that's a laugh. Thor had plenty of help. Haussler, Klier, Lancaster and Roulston weren't there for Sastre... they were there for Thor.
Was Cav's team better? Yeah... you could argue Columbia is the best team in cycling. And he did have the whole team (similar to what Thor had at Credit Agricolae). But let's not talk like Thor was all by his lonesome and Cav had a full team.
Thor grabbed Cav's wheel and used his team to get second place rather then use his own. He used his own once... and Cav came from behind and passed him.
I'm not sure what you think Thor having the full team would have accomplished. He wouldn't have won any more sprints... Cav showed he was capable of passing Thor from behind in the sprints. There weren't any breaks he would have gotten his team to pull back that didn't end in a sprint anyway. And having 8 guys block the wind isn't all that much better then having 3-4 guys do so.
Had their roles been reversed... I don't see there being a whole lot of difference in results. Instead of Columbia leading out Cav... they'd lead out Thor... and Cav would have passed him in the sprint. He showed he could do that in this tour as well as win from out front.
Cav won when delivered by his leadout close to the line. He won when delivered far from the line. He won after a Cat 2 climb. He won on an uphill sprint. He won without a train starting behind other sprinters. He won in a sprint with cobbles near the finish. Perhaps it wouldn't have been as easy without his team. Maybe there wouldn't have been as many sprint finishes as Columbia often did all the work and required a strong team to do that. But I dont' see Thor finishing ahead of Cav in any of those sprints regardless of who was on what team. Cav won in too many different ways.
I can't remember seeing Haussler, Klier, Lancaster or Roulston in any of the sprints where they were supposed to help Hushovd. And since when did we start discussing about stage wins? I remember the discussion here was about the points jersey. A stronger team for Thor might not have brought him more wins, but he definitely would have had more points. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 28-07-2009 22:25
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Tour de France Champion
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Shooting Star wrote:
I can't remember seeing Haussler, Klier, Lancaster or Roulston in any of the sprints where they were supposed to help Hushovd.
Hint: it's because they didn't. Van Poppel described Cervélo's philosophy before the Pyrenees as "All for Sastre" and after the Pyrenees as "Everyone for himself" |
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| Podium place |
Posted on 28-07-2009 22:49
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Stagiare
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Thor earned the green jersey for all it's worth! That move he did in the mountains secured his green jersey and Thor did'nt get any help from teammates, especially disappointed over haussler who obviously thinks too high of himself.
Chelsea for ever!
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| Bosskardo |
Posted on 30-07-2009 08:31
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I didnt see the ceremony live but i watched it yesterday and i think Conta didnt know they were playing the wrong anthem.
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| Ad Bot |
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| ponka00 |
Posted on 30-07-2009 09:08
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KurtinSC wrote:
Shooting Star wrote:
That is all circumstances. If Hushovd had more help from his teammates, he most likely would have had more points. If he wasn't hindered before the sprint at Champs-Élysées, he most likely would have had more points. Cavendish didn't beat all those other sprinters on his own. He had a whole team to help him.
Thor had half a team... and the whole team once Sastre was out of it. Playing the "what if" game is fine... but the facts are:
1) Thor won.
2) The margin was less then the points he gained by Cav's DQ.
He's the winner... but it's a weak win. A judgement call from the officials gave him the points win... not his performance on the road. This won't change the records any more then the 200m results at the olympics will not reflect the guys who got DQ'd. But it's hard to view Thor as being the better rider... he was just on the lucky end of an officials decision.
Perhaps you view Thor as being a better "points" rider in the tour. I don't see it.
You can't really blame the judges though, it was all Cavs own fault... |
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 30-07-2009 17:51
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Im not quite sure why there is such a big issue of the help Cervelo gave to Hushovd.
Yes, Cervelo didnt even try to take on the Columbia sprint train head to head but I get the feeling that Hushovd himself reckoned his best chance was to take Cav's wheel and hope to beat him that way
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| KurtinSC |
Posted on 30-07-2009 18:13
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SportingNonsense wrote:
Im not quite sure why there is such a big issue of the help Cervelo gave to Hushovd.
Yes, Cervelo didnt even try to take on the Columbia sprint train head to head but I get the feeling that Hushovd himself reckoned his best chance was to take Cav's wheel and hope to beat him that way
I think some people view the only teamwork a sprinter can have being setting up a train.
I could be wrong, but I generally remember seeing a cervelo team member (or 2) keeping Thor out of the wind during the stages. I imagine he didn't get his own water bottles. And I remember at least once where he was led to the front by his team (where he then grabbed Cav's wheel and his teammates backed off).
He was riding behind a teammate (Roulston) when he made the break in stage 3 as well.
No, Hushovd didn't have a train. He had enough teammates to set up a 3 man leadout... but with Columbia taking control so early that would never work. But he wasn't abandoned either. |
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| Ildabaoth |
Posted on 30-07-2009 18:21
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KurtinSC wrote:
SportingNonsense wrote:
Im not quite sure why there is such a big issue of the help Cervelo gave to Hushovd.
Yes, Cervelo didnt even try to take on the Columbia sprint train head to head but I get the feeling that Hushovd himself reckoned his best chance was to take Cav's wheel and hope to beat him that way
I think some people view the only teamwork a sprinter can have being setting up a train.
I could be wrong, but I generally remember seeing a cervelo team member (or 2) keeping Thor out of the wind during the stages. I imagine he didn't get his own water bottles. And I remember at least once where he was led to the front by his team (where he then grabbed Cav's wheel and his teammates backed off).
He was riding behind a teammate (Roulston) when he made the break in stage 3 as well.
No, Hushovd didn't have a train. He had enough teammates to set up a 3 man leadout... but with Columbia taking control so early that would never work. But he wasn't abandoned either.
I'm afraid I don't get your point. Of course Hushovd had guys to help him. Of course some other riders fetched him the water. So what? Should we expect him to do all that stuff? It makes no sense to try to compare that help to Columbia's help to Cavendish.
Disclaimer: The above post reflects just the personal opinion of the author and not a fact. But if you read it, you must accept it as the ultimate truth.
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| Wolfos |
Posted on 30-07-2009 18:37
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On the stage where Cav got his 4th win (I think), Hushovd had to pull off a big effort over the last 5 kms to get and keep Cavs wheel. This was visible from a very prolonged overhead shot from the helicopter. He finished 5th, due to a bit too big a gear on the uphill and "not his best legs". Better team work *might* have given him more points there. |
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| KurtinSC |
Posted on 30-07-2009 19:05
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Ildabaoth wrote:
KurtinSC wrote:
SportingNonsense wrote:
Im not quite sure why there is such a big issue of the help Cervelo gave to Hushovd.
Yes, Cervelo didnt even try to take on the Columbia sprint train head to head but I get the feeling that Hushovd himself reckoned his best chance was to take Cav's wheel and hope to beat him that way
I think some people view the only teamwork a sprinter can have being setting up a train.
I could be wrong, but I generally remember seeing a cervelo team member (or 2) keeping Thor out of the wind during the stages. I imagine he didn't get his own water bottles. And I remember at least once where he was led to the front by his team (where he then grabbed Cav's wheel and his teammates backed off).
He was riding behind a teammate (Roulston) when he made the break in stage 3 as well.
No, Hushovd didn't have a train. He had enough teammates to set up a 3 man leadout... but with Columbia taking control so early that would never work. But he wasn't abandoned either.
I'm afraid I don't get your point. Of course Hushovd had guys to help him. Of course some other riders fetched him the water. So what? Should we expect him to do all that stuff? It makes no sense to try to compare that help to Columbia's help to Cavendish.
The point is people are saying Hushovd was "on his own" against Cav.
He wasn't. He had 3-4 helpers in the sprint stages.
He was led to the front on most stages. He was protected. He got everything a sprinter could want if not getting a train. While his team didn't pull back breaks... that was because everyone was forcing Columbia to... not because he didn't have guys to do it.
The reason he lost wasn't the team. It was that Cav was the better sprinter.
The funniest thing about this whole thread is I actually won a bet on Thor to win the green jersey. After watching the tour though... I just don't think he really deserved it with how it happened... even if I predicted it before hand. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 30-07-2009 19:17
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Tour de France Champion
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So why are you re-posting the same thing over and over and over and over again with everyone disagreeing with you instead of just getting a video?
If it happened, as you say it did, posting a video should take no more than a few seconds.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| KurtinSC |
Posted on 30-07-2009 20:02
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Because I only come on this website while at work to avoid actually working... and video traffic is blocked.
But are you seriously suggesting that he wasn't getting help... even when a teammate got in the split with him on stage 3? I honestly don't remember a sprint stage where he wasn't tucked behind a Cervelo rider... or tucked behind Cav. |
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| BenBarnes |
Posted on 30-07-2009 20:15
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I believe the Res' was referring to Cav cutting or not cutting off Thor? Correct me if I'm wrong, Isso. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 30-07-2009 20:17
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Nope, I was referring to Thor having teammates/not having teammates leading him out. |
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| Shooting Star |
Posted on 30-07-2009 20:58
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KurtinSC wrote:
Ildabaoth wrote:
KurtinSC wrote:
SportingNonsense wrote:
Im not quite sure why there is such a big issue of the help Cervelo gave to Hushovd.
Yes, Cervelo didnt even try to take on the Columbia sprint train head to head but I get the feeling that Hushovd himself reckoned his best chance was to take Cav's wheel and hope to beat him that way
I think some people view the only teamwork a sprinter can have being setting up a train.
I could be wrong, but I generally remember seeing a cervelo team member (or 2) keeping Thor out of the wind during the stages. I imagine he didn't get his own water bottles. And I remember at least once where he was led to the front by his team (where he then grabbed Cav's wheel and his teammates backed off).
He was riding behind a teammate (Roulston) when he made the break in stage 3 as well.
No, Hushovd didn't have a train. He had enough teammates to set up a 3 man leadout... but with Columbia taking control so early that would never work. But he wasn't abandoned either.
I'm afraid I don't get your point. Of course Hushovd had guys to help him. Of course some other riders fetched him the water. So what? Should we expect him to do all that stuff? It makes no sense to try to compare that help to Columbia's help to Cavendish.
The point is people are saying Hushovd was "on his own" against Cav.
He wasn't. He had 3-4 helpers in the sprint stages.
He was led to the front on most stages. He was protected. He got everything a sprinter could want if not getting a train. While his team didn't pull back breaks... that was because everyone was forcing Columbia to... not because he didn't have guys to do it.
The reason he lost wasn't the team. It was that Cav was the better sprinter.
The funniest thing about this whole thread is I actually won a bet on Thor to win the green jersey. After watching the tour though... I just don't think he really deserved it with how it happened... even if I predicted it before hand.
Again, we were talking about the green jersey here and not stage wins. No?
Thor might have had helpers assigned to him, but they did not help him sufficiently in the most important part, i.e. the actual sprints. |
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