|
The Doping Game
|
| brun sweater |
Posted on 30-09-2008 23:24
|
Neo-Pro
Posts: 273
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
About Kohl, the devils advocat have something to say  We really don't know his excact increase in power. His 40 watts relative increase, doesn't necessarily mean he increased the same percentage in power pr. kg. He looked a lot leaner this year, and with his extraordinary low metabolism for a cyclist, it's hard to judge. This plus the way the last mountains was ridden, and that he the previous year didn't ride klassement (he was in the same break as Rasmussen on the way to Tignes), makes it hard to judge! |
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 01-10-2008 07:30
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
mb2612 wrote:
ok, so Barloworld is doping, Astana is doping, CSC is doping.
Not everyone on those teams.
mb2612 wrote:
Not every one is though. I challenge you to name one current rider of some significance who you don't think is doping.
Thor Hushovd
mb2612 wrote:
Almost every top athlete in the world has a breakthrough year where they emerge on the world stage, it is much more rare for someone who slowly emerges over time to reach the top.
That breakthrough is when they take the small final step. They don't take an enormous step from crap to elite.
mb2612 wrote:
It was natural progresion, not naturaly good, you were saying how he had got consistently better over the years, I can't remeber the exact words. If I have time later I might have a brief search
Please do the search. I never said that.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
|
| |
|
|
| CrueTrue |
Posted on 01-10-2008 07:43
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 29989
Joined: 20-10-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
If we are to believe Michael Rasmussen, Hushovd has received two warnings for missing out on anti-doping controls |
| |
|
|
| brun sweater |
Posted on 01-10-2008 08:36
|
Neo-Pro
Posts: 273
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
Rasmussen gate and especially the Balco affair, have taught us, how speculating in whereabout warnings, makes it rather safe to dope up in the off-season. In fact, only teams with an internal testing regime, making the off season high priority, can be said to actually do something about the problem.
The recent scandals have all evolved around tests taken during competition, and it is of course a good thing, that it's getting harder to juice up duirng race season, but the main problem is still the off season. |
| |
|
|
| jacknic |
Posted on 01-10-2008 10:36
|
Domestique
Posts: 613
Joined: 19-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
First off: Issoisso I am sorry that you seem to be on trial here, but it is an interesting discussion. So here goes.
Not everyone on those teams.
You just potetially accused some 90 riders of doping. One of my problems with this whole discussion. It seems to be ok for people to just fling out accusations left and right without making a case.
Thor Hushovd
Again, make a case. Seems as arbritrary as saying that Andy Schleck is doped. Maybe you can argue both cases, but the same goes the other way around.
That breakthrough is when they take the small final step. They don't take an enormous step from crap to elite.
I know I'm splitting hairs, but Kohl was never "Crap". He was always solid in the mountains. This year he was elite. As Brun Sweater said it could be because of weightloss.
And Aquarius: Please don't dismiss me as being naive. I know doping is going on in the world of cycling. I just choose not to buy in to all the rumors. As i've said earlier I'd rather be dissappointed than right about a rider. If I were to believe in all the rumors the I would have to have a virtual classement in my head where I sort out the riders who I THINK, not know, is doping and who i think are clean. That would take the fun right out of the sport.
|
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 01-10-2008 10:46
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
jacknic wrote:
First off: Issoisso I am sorry that you seem to be on trial here, but it is an interesting discussion. So here goes.
Not at all. This is the whole point of a forum 
jacknic wrote:
Not everyone on those teams.
You just potetially accused some 90 riders of doping.
I don't understand how I did that 
What riders are those and what did I say to accuse them?
jacknic wrote:
One of my problems with this whole discussion. It seems to be ok for people to just fling out accusations left and right without making a case.
Thor Hushovd
Again, make a case. Seems as arbritrary as saying that Andy Schleck is doped. Maybe you can argue both cases, but the same goes the other way around.
Hushovd? Fine.
There is no reason at all for me to suspect him. None whatsoever. So I'll admit he's innocent unless there's smoke that might lead to a fire.
jacknic wrote:
I know I'm splitting hairs, but Kohl was never "Crap". He was always solid in the mountains. This year he was elite. As Brun Sweater said it could be because of weightloss.
The enormous difference was simply too much. Unlike said before, he did ride for the GC in last year's Tour. Even Holczer pronounced himself very happy that Kohl did so well on GC. he was 31st...
Edited by issoisso on 01-10-2008 10:47
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
|
| |
|
|
| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-12-2024 09:32
|
Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
|
|
| IP: None |
|
|
| brun sweater |
Posted on 01-10-2008 11:38
|
Neo-Pro
Posts: 273
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
issoisso wrote:Unlike said before, he did ride for the GC in last year's Tour. Even Holczer pronounced himself very happy that Kohl did so well on GC. he was 31st...
That was me saying that 
I must say though, then he did an immensly bad job. Going in a break on the first montain etape, ending up loosing 22min. If riding for GC, and not KOM, Holczer surely would expected more of a rider placing 3rd in Dauphine the year before?
Edited by brun sweater on 01-10-2008 11:38
|
| |
|
|
| mb2612 |
Posted on 01-10-2008 11:48
|
Team Leader
Posts: 5759
Joined: 18-05-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
isso,
i owe you an apology. I found this comment in the Duenas Nevado thread:
I don't think Kohl is that big of a surprise. In my view he has been progressing steadily for years, plus he looks much leaner this time, compared to last year?
unfortunately for me it was written by brum sweater.
Thor Hushovd,
Came out of nowhere to win the world U23 ITT at the age of just 20. Has, like many suspicious riders who were never caught, stayed with one team for an extremely long time. His team have recently had a rider who was caught doping in the tour de France. Quite suspicious.
 [url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 01-10-2008 11:58
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
mb2612 wrote:
isso,
i owe you an apology. I found this comment in the Duenas Nevado thread:
I don't think Kohl is that big of a surprise. In my view he has been progressing steadily for years, plus he looks much leaner this time, compared to last year?
unfortunately for me it was written by brum sweater.
No worries.
mb2612 wrote:
Thor Hushovd,
Came out of nowhere to win the world U23 ITT at the age of just 20.
Yes, he won. Where the doping is far less prevalent he won and since he turned professional he never again did anything of the sort in long time trials. I see that as a strong "he's clean" argument.
Also, his competition was Horrible. Fréderic Finot was second.
mb2612 wrote:
Has, like many suspicious riders who were never caught, stayed with one team for an extremely long time.
I find that quite irrelevant.
mb2612 wrote:
His team have recently had a rider who was caught doping in the tour de France. Quite suspicious.
No team is free from one single idiot doing something stupid. In fact, aside from that idiot, his team have no suspicious performances, and it's been around since 1990.
It's also run by probably the staunchest opponent of drugs in cycling, who was a lonely voice against doping as far back as the 80s.
Edited by issoisso on 01-10-2008 12:51
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
|
| |
|
|
| brun sweater |
Posted on 01-10-2008 12:00
|
Neo-Pro
Posts: 273
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
That was me alright.
I must emphasize, I haven't concluded that he ain't doped! It's jst that in my view he has been a raising star for some time already. |
| |
|
|
| chuckie |
Posted on 01-10-2008 12:34
|
Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 828
Joined: 22-09-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
mb2612 wrote:
Thor Hushovd,
Came out of nowhere to win the world U23 ITT at the age of just 20. Has, like many suspicious riders who were never caught, stayed with one team for an extremely long time. His team have recently had a rider who was caught doping in the tour de France. Quite suspicious.
That's a pretty low blow,leave Thor out of this...
And Botcharov is a Kazakh which explains a lot!
|
| |
|
|
| Aquarius |
Posted on 01-10-2008 12:42
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5220
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
It's expectable that Russia will invade and nationalise Kazakhstan again one day, but the other way round ? |
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 01-10-2008 12:48
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
chuckie wrote:
mb2612 wrote:
Thor Hushovd,
Came out of nowhere to win the world U23 ITT at the age of just 20. Has, like many suspicious riders who were never caught, stayed with one team for an extremely long time. His team have recently had a rider who was caught doping in the tour de France. Quite suspicious.
That's a pretty low blow,leave Thor out of this...
And Botcharov is a Kazakh which explains a lot!
Botcharov is russian 
Fofonov is the one you mean
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
|
| |
|
|
| jacknic |
Posted on 01-10-2008 12:55
|
Domestique
Posts: 613
Joined: 19-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
I don't understand how I did that Frown
What riders are those and what did I say to accuse them?
You said "Not everyone on those teams." which implies that some of them. When you don't name names, all riders are supects in that statement. Semantics I know, but still.'
No team is free from one single idiot doing something stupid. In fact, aside from that idiot, his team have no suspicious performances, and it's been around since 1990.
It's also run by probably the staunchest opponent of drugs in cycling, who was a lonely voice against doping as far back as the 80s.
So we trust this guy, but not Jesper Damsgaard who has made a carrer in anti doping research and who has put his proffesional reputation on the line by providing an anti doping programme for a highly suspect sport?
|
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 01-10-2008 12:59
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
jacknic wrote:
You said "Not everyone on those teams." which implies that some of them. When you don't name names, all riders are supects in that statement. Semantics I know, but still.'
You said those teams were guilty. I was making a point that you can't just say the whole team is guilty.
jacknic wrote:
So we trust this guy, but not Jesper Damsgaard who has made a carrer in anti doping research and who has put his proffesional reputation on the line by providing an anti doping programme for a highly suspect sport?
Because Legeay could've won millions and been so much more successful and gained nothing from what he did while Rasmus (not Jesper) Damsgaard could easily be working with CSC to conceal the doping and proudly pronounce that they're all clean, or could (I think it's far more likely) be pissed that the UCI isn't finding the CSCs positive.
Remember Damsgaard doesn't say whether the samples are positive or negative, he just decides when they'll be taken from the riders. He even said so himself that the UCI are "sitting on a mountain of positive EPO" that is being labelled "negative".
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
|
| |
|
|
| jacknic |
Posted on 01-10-2008 13:20
|
Domestique
Posts: 613
Joined: 19-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
Oh Right, Rasmus. Always gets him mixed up with a danish tenor called Jesper Damgaard.
You said those teams were guilty. I was making a point that you can't just say the whole team is guilty.
Actually that wasn't me claiming that. I would never make such a statement.
Because Legeay could've won millions and been so much more successful and gained nothing from what he did while Rasmus (not Jesper) Damsgaard could easily be working with CSC to conceal the doping and proudly pronounce that they're all clean, or could (I think it's far more likely) be pissed that the UCI isn't finding the CSCs positive.
Remember Damsgaard doesn't say whether the samples are positive or negative, he just decides when they'll be taken from the riders. He even said so himself that the UCI are "sitting on a mountain of positive EPO" that is being labelled "negative".
I don't think the first is the case. I cannot imagine a conspiracy like this. The man would have to be borderline psychopathic to say what he does in the media and then work to conceal CSC's doping. The second, I do agree is more likely, however why would he want to be associated with a team he knows is doped up? And why wouldn't he speak up? But maybe we will be wiser soon. I hope that something more substatial than Le Soirs article will be presented soon to end the rumors and speculation. It is hurting the sport. |
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 01-10-2008 13:24
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
jacknic wrote:
Actually that wasn't me claiming that. I would never make such a statement.
Right. mb-something made them. Same answer, only to him, then
jacknic wrote:I hope that something more substatial than Le Soirs article will be presented soon to end the rumors and speculation. It is hurting the sport.
I hope so, but I won't hold my breath
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
|
| |
|
|
| milrbe |
Posted on 01-10-2008 16:17
|
Under 23
Posts: 69
Joined: 01-10-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
Hey, so I'm new to post on the site, but have logged on and read the forums for a while now.
My question (and it's an honest question--not meant to be attacking ) is, if you're so convinced that so many of the top level athletes are doping, what enjoyment do you still get out of following the sport? |
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 01-10-2008 16:21
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
I love cycling, no matter who is riding or what they're doing behind closed doors.
But if someone pulls up a subject on which I have views (in this case doping), I'll share them. I also dream of a day when I'll be able to enjoy cycling even more than I do now because clean riders will be winning the biggest races.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
|
| |
|
|
| Aquarius |
Posted on 01-10-2008 16:58
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5220
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
milrbe wrote:
Hey, so I'm new to post on the site, but have logged on and read the forums for a while now.
My question (and it's an honest question--not meant to be attacking ) is, if you're so convinced that so many of the top level athletes are doping, what enjoyment do you still get out of following the sport? Well, I'm (or I was) a cyclist much before being a pro cycling fan. I still hardly consider myself a fan of professional cycling actually.
And like issoisso, I have views and some knowledge on that topic, so I try to share it, even if it hurts the fans of some riders or some teams. I reckon it's better not to be naive about what's going on. I must also admit I'm often tempted to watch the clean riders race within the race, I have two classifications in my head, like somebody mentioned it above. |
| |
|
