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2010 Tour de France - Shades of '66?
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| markene2 |
Posted on 05-11-2009 20:08
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Domestique
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Cordelier wrote:
What if Vinokourov disagrees with Sanquer's tactics? Will he be able to overrule him? And what if Contador disagrees with Vinokourov? Is he going to go off and ride his own race?? If there's one iron rule in the Tour de France it is this: "There can be only one". I don't think there is or ever will be only one on Astana. It's a recipe for disaster.
Vino have already said that he will suport AC 100% in the tour if he stays. Vino will aim for the classics and the giro  |
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| Waghlon |
Posted on 05-11-2009 20:14
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kumazan wrote:
Cordelier wrote:
In point of fairness, I said Cadel would have won the Tour in '07 and '08 if he were on a Euskaltel-style team - he would have challenged for his third in a row in '09, but I don't think he would have beaten Astana.
Then I'd like you to elaborate on what's an Euskaltel-style team.
Ill bite. A team that doesnt focus at all on the big picture but rather just attacks bravely whenever they feel like and tries to win in one certain area of a country. They also always bring some guy which normally is quite good but he sorta always disappoint or if he doesnt disappoint, he comes up just short of either a win or a jersey.
I suppose that means Evans was already riding on a Euskatel-style team
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 14:40
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 05-11-2009 20:14
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Cordelier wrote:
I would hazard to guess that Leggett has watched more cycling than everyone in this forum combined.
Nearly 30,000 members, so if everyone here has watched just 1 race, that is nearly 30,000 races. And consider that most people here will have seen a lot more than just the 1 race.
So maybe not.
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| issoisso |
Posted on 05-11-2009 20:18
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Cordelier wrote:
Pantani won because Telekom was stupid and Telekom was stupid because with ONCE and Festina leaving, it threw all of their pre-race calculations out the window and they didn't adapt properly, thus leaving the window open for Pantani.
How exactly were they stupid? Name one thing they did wrong.
Also, ONCE left the Tour when all the GC stages were done except one Time trial. So you're arguing ONCE leaving affected tactics for....a time trial?
Cordelier wrote:
I don't want to take anything away from LeMond's win in '89, but it would have been an entirely different story if Delgado had showed up on time for the Prologue. By starting so far down, he pushed himself too hard in the early part of the race, and ended up blowing the TTT because of it
No. Delgado himself says he blew the TTT because he was completely demotivated. But that was also due to the botched prologue.
Cordelier wrote:
, which put him even further behind and increased his troubles. Reynolds had the best team in the Tour - once Delgado got in the hole early, they should have switched their GC focus to Indurain and proceeded from there. I know Delgado was the defending champion, but it's a cold business - sometimes you just have to do what it takes. Even with Delgado starting in the hole, though, let's not forget that he only finished 3'34" back, which is a testament to his team, if not their tactics.
Yet he won that time with breaks, not with direct confrontation. If he hadn't lost so much time early on, he wouldn't have been allowed that much freedom and wouldn't have gained that time. He would've been reduced to direct confrontation....which he lost every single time it happened in that Tour.
SportingNonsense wrote:
But it wont work like that, youre not able as a team to let one of your strong climbers attack and then just slow the pack. Radioshack wouldnt be able to do that, if nothing else but because there would be ~20 other teams in the race, including the team of whoever is leading the race (Armstrong in yellow? Unlikely), and various teams with GC leaders of their own. Maybe this plan works in your head, but cycling isnt like that!
Very few plans actually survive the circumstances of the race.
MrContador wrote:
Please tell me, if gaining valuable time on your competitors on an important mountain stage is wrong, what is then right? You did think it was right that Armstrong took time on Contador on the stage to La Grande-Motte, so that pretty much proves you're a hypocrite.
Seconded
MrContador wrote:
Yeah, you're right. And Armstrong hadn't won the Tour in 2003 if Ullrich hadn't lost so much time on Alpe d'Huez.
"Fun fact": Ullrich was very ill. Victor Hugo Peña commented his bike was brown and the team car periodically hosed it down on that stage....to clear out the dyarrhea.
MrContador wrote:
And Berzin hadn't won the Giro in 1994 if Pantani had been the captain of Carrera from the very beginning.
I don't agree. Pantani's biggest time gain was when he attacked and was let go because he was far down on GC. In two of the three stages where he went head to head with Berzin, he lost time (Campitello Matese and Sestriere)
MrContador wrote:
And we wouldn't have had this discussion if the world had exploded last week, what are you getting at? Such things as Delgado missing the start of the prologue is things that just happens in cycling. Remember Landis in 2006? Regardless of that he won the Tour (until it came clear he had tested positive). You're thinking too much about "what if how then", it's impossible to predict how things would've went then.
I like these discussions. I think they're fun.
Cordelier wrote:
In point of fairness, I said Cadel would have won the Tour in '07 and '08 if he were on a Euskaltel-style team - he would have challenged for his third in a row in '09, but I don't think he would have beaten Astana.
And he would've won if Rasmussen wasn't there to pull Contador up the mountains as he shouldn't have been. And he would've won if he hadn't had derraileur problems in the Pyrenees. And he would've won if there hadn't been a tailwind in the final time trial. He was extremely unlucky. That's life.
Cordelier wrote:
Truth be told, I have my doubts Astana will even get a Tour invite - I think it's going to be a repeat of 2008 for Contador. But if they do get invited, there is going to be so much controversy and infighting, it's going to nullify any coherent teamwork on the road.
With the squad they have and no recent doping cases, they'll be there. Vino's the one who won't be allowed, and he knows this. He's publicly admitted he won't even try to race the Tour.
Cordelier wrote: What if Vinokourov disagrees with Sanquer's tactics? Will he be able to overrule him? And what if Contador disagrees with Vinokourov? Is he going to go off and ride his own race?? If there's one iron rule in the Tour de France it is this: "There can be only one". I don't think there is or ever will be only one on Astana. It's a recipe for disaster.
What if a meteor falls on Armstrong? Since we're into wild hypothetical situations...
Cordelier wrote:
if anyone can do it, it'd be Bruyneel.
Sorry, just no
Cordelier wrote:
It's the speed shift that will cross up the other teams. Think of it as the reverse of what US Postal did in the Alpe d'Huez stage in 2001... they went slow all day as if they were breaking and then suddenly changed the speed and threw everyone else (especially Telekom) out of whack. They bluffed weak when they were strong... well, now he'll bluff strong when he's weak. That's the Aimar attack.
The difference being that the bluff was awful and Telekom admitted privately they knew full well what was happening. They just had to gain time and only had that stage to do it so they had nothing to lose.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| ruben |
Posted on 05-11-2009 22:40
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Armstrong can only win the Tour again if Contador, Andy Schleck, Cadel Evans, Denis Menchov, Carlos Sastre, perhaps even Roman Kreuziger, Robert Gesink, Bradley Wiggins and more fall of their bike /are all out of form |
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| Deadpool |
Posted on 05-11-2009 23:28
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SportingNonsense wrote:
Look after Lance on the flat (Maybe try to crash into Contador on the cobbles or windy days, thats the most likely place for Armstrong to gain time on someone who is a better climber and better time trialist than him))
Seriously, don't give Bruyneel any ideas. I could completely see Bruyneel offering Tomas Vaitkus a shitload of money under the table to take out Contador in a "crash" during the cobble stages.
Edited by Deadpool on 05-11-2009 23:28
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| ABridgeTooFar |
Posted on 05-11-2009 23:35
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Domestique
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Good Lord this is like listening to a liberal Democrat and a right wing Conservative have a discussion about universal healthcare. The Tour can't come fast enough. I hope these discussions will not continure until July. Can't you guys understand that you will never convince the other side about your views on the issue. |
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| ursul |
Posted on 06-11-2009 00:18
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ruben wrote:
Armstrong can only win the Tour again if Contador, Andy Schleck, Cadel Evans, Denis Menchov, Carlos Sastre, perhaps even Roman Kreuziger, Robert Gesink, Bradley Wiggins and more fall of their bike /are all out of form
he will be veru lucky if it happend
When Nothing goes rigth, go left...
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| Deda |
Posted on 06-11-2009 00:21
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A little off topic remark, it won't be the first time I've said it:
Opinions are like assholes.
Everybody has one, and all the others are full of crap.
Please carry on.. 
If offense is the best defence, does it mean that defence is the worst defence?
If I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord will delete my browser history.
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| KurtinSC |
Posted on 06-11-2009 12:16
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ruben wrote:
Armstrong can only win the Tour again if Contador, Andy Schleck, Cadel Evans, Denis Menchov, Carlos Sastre, perhaps even Roman Kreuziger, Robert Gesink, Bradley Wiggins and more fall of their bike /are all out of form
I'm not certain that Armstrong wasn't better then Sastre, Kreuziger and Wiggins even when they were on form. Wiggins was in great form for the Tour... and Armstrong still did better.
I'm not certain Menchov and Gesink are "gimme's" in that regard either.
Armstrong is not the dominant rider in cycling right now... Contador is. He's not #2 either. But he's still in the top 6 or 7 comfortably. As Sastre proved... you can win a TDF when you aren't the best rider. |
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 06-11-2009 13:15
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KurtinSC wrote:
ruben wrote:
Armstrong can only win the Tour again if Contador, Andy Schleck, Cadel Evans, Denis Menchov, Carlos Sastre, perhaps even Roman Kreuziger, Robert Gesink, Bradley Wiggins and more fall of their bike /are all out of form
I'm not certain that Armstrong wasn't better then Sastre, Kreuziger and Wiggins even when they were on form. Wiggins was in great form for the Tour... and Armstrong still did better.
I'm not certain Menchov and Gesink are "gimme's" in that regard either.
Armstrong is not the dominant rider in cycling right now... Contador is. He's not #2 either. But he's still in the top 6 or 7 comfortably. As Sastre proved... you can win a TDF when you aren't the best rider.
I disagree, the rider who wins proves they are the best rider. There is more to being a rider than physical talent. Tactics, teams, and all the rest of it come into it. By the fact alone that he won the Tour proves to me that he was indeed the best rider of that tour. Otherwise someone else would have won.
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| KurtinSC |
Posted on 07-11-2009 13:08
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rjc_43 wrote:
KurtinSC wrote:
ruben wrote:
Armstrong can only win the Tour again if Contador, Andy Schleck, Cadel Evans, Denis Menchov, Carlos Sastre, perhaps even Roman Kreuziger, Robert Gesink, Bradley Wiggins and more fall of their bike /are all out of form
I'm not certain that Armstrong wasn't better then Sastre, Kreuziger and Wiggins even when they were on form. Wiggins was in great form for the Tour... and Armstrong still did better.
I'm not certain Menchov and Gesink are "gimme's" in that regard either.
Armstrong is not the dominant rider in cycling right now... Contador is. He's not #2 either. But he's still in the top 6 or 7 comfortably. As Sastre proved... you can win a TDF when you aren't the best rider.
I disagree, the rider who wins proves they are the best rider. There is more to being a rider than physical talent. Tactics, teams, and all the rest of it come into it. By the fact alone that he won the Tour proves to me that he was indeed the best rider of that tour. Otherwise someone else would have won.
Okay... substitute "strongest" for "best" if you prefer.
There are enough small events that happen in a three week race that can cause the rider strongest on the road not to win. One crash... a poor supporting cast... or a puncture where neutral service costs ou 90 seconds... can be the difference between winning and losing.
I don't think I'm unreasonable in saying that Sastre wasn't strongest in 2008. Evans had a poor team and crashed before the decisive mountains, which seemed to hinder him the rest of the way. Andy Schleck had an issue with feeding that took him out of GC contention... otherwise he might have been the one tabbed from his team to attack on the Alpe duez instead of Sastre on the one that worked.
That is why Lance has a shot. Not because he's the strongest rider... he won't be. But rather because the top guy (Contador) has a weak team, Lance is crafty and who knows when someone might crash, bonk, or have a flat in a key spot. |
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| BenBarnes |
Posted on 10-11-2009 21:24
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rjc_43 wrote:
I disagree, the rider who wins proves they are the best rider. There is more to being a rider than physical talent. Tactics, teams, and all the rest of it come into it. By the fact alone that he won the Tour proves to me that he was indeed the best rider of that tour. Otherwise someone else would have won.
Pereiro? No way that guy was the best rider in that Tour. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 10-11-2009 21:36
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BenBarnes wrote:
rjc_43 wrote:
I disagree, the rider who wins proves they are the best rider. There is more to being a rider than physical talent. Tactics, teams, and all the rest of it come into it. By the fact alone that he won the Tour proves to me that he was indeed the best rider of that tour. Otherwise someone else would have won.
Pereiro? No way that guy was the best rider in that Tour.
Can anyone really be considered the best?
Pereiro lost 30 minutes in the Pyrenees on purpouse so he could be let free for breaks. Then he hung on.
Landis controlled everything remarkably...except for one major blot.
Sastre outclimbed the others....but his time trial was lacking.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| mb2612 |
Posted on 10-11-2009 22:10
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issoisso wrote:
BenBarnes wrote:
rjc_43 wrote:
I disagree, the rider who wins proves they are the best rider. There is more to being a rider than physical talent. Tactics, teams, and all the rest of it come into it. By the fact alone that he won the Tour proves to me that he was indeed the best rider of that tour. Otherwise someone else would have won.
Pereiro? No way that guy was the best rider in that Tour.
Can anyone really be considered the best?
Pereiro lost 30 minutes in the Pyrenees on purpouse so he could be let free for breaks. Then he hung on.
Landis controlled everything remarkably...except for one major blot.
Sastre outclimbed the others....but his time trial was lacking.
Kloden?
 [url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
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| issoisso |
Posted on 11-11-2009 08:06
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If I recall correctly, he was dropped on every mountain finish except Alpe d'Huez...
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| mb2612 |
Posted on 11-11-2009 14:22
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issoisso wrote:
If I recall correctly, he was dropped on every mountain finish except Alpe d'Huez...
yeah, looking at the 3rd week Periero was actually really strong, andd I now feel he was a deserving winner.
[url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
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| ScottyMuser |
Posted on 05-01-2010 22:17
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First post here, having found this place through bbc 606; just my tuppence regarding strength of teams:
I would say that Astana, currently, have a STRONGER line up to back Contador than 'Shack, all I see is 3 cyclists who could back up a younger GC a little (Armstrong, Kloden, Levi), none of which could be counted as one of the top 20 pure climbers in the peloton, heck maybe not even top 50!
Contador has got the likes of Perrerio for the smaller hills and flat, and De La Fuente/Gogonov/Davis/Vino/Navarro for the mountains. Don't forget last year's tour was the least mountainous/most Armstrong FRIENDLY route possible, he managed to get 3rd in the strongets team mainly due to the TTT (not in this year) and him gaining 45 secs on a split peloton which people should be more aware of this year.
I would also rate Liquigas (Pelizotti/Nibali/Kreuziger/Syzmd/Basso/Bennati), Sky (Wiggins/KAA/EBH/Sutton/Gerrans/Lovkvist/Pauwels), Saxobank (Frandy/Cacellara/Breschel/.Voigt/O Grady) as strong (if not stronger) than Radioshack.
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 12-07-2010 09:35
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Tour de France Champion
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Cordelier wrote:
CrueTrue wrote:
I hope that you're here in July next year
Ohhhh... I'll be here. I wouldn't miss this for the world.
I'm glad you're still here, Mr. Cordelier.
This is one brilliant thread to read |
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