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Sky Doping/Hate Thread
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| issoisso |
Posted on 14-07-2012 18:48
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Tour de France Champion
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Ybodonk wrote:
Wiggins have just stated that he would like to show he's blood values and numbers, but he cant. The reason for this is , that the doctors/medical staff on Sky has adviced him not to, since the numbers and values can easily be misunderstood. And the numbers itself wouldn't show or proof whether you are doped or not. Very interesting statement.
Ah yes, they won't do what they promised they'd do because the fans are too stupid to understand.
The saddest excuse.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Ybodonk |
Posted on 14-07-2012 18:55
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cio93 wrote:
Ybodonk wrote:
Wiggins have just stated that he would like to show he's blood values and numbers, but he cant. The reason for this is , that the doctors/medical staff on Sky has adviced him not to, since the numbers and values can easily be misunderstood. And the numbers itself wouldn't show or proof whether you are doped or not. Very interesting statement.
Somehow sounds like "I'd like to show you I don't dope, but I do" 
Yeah exactly, i dont know why he even stated this. This statement is definately something which will be critized ,analyzed and add further to the shady speculations. For me Wiggins seems like having such a hard time trying to prove his innonce, but it has the opposite effect. Just like if you are caught cheating on your girlfriend and keeps deniying it, even though both of you knows the truth.
In the end, if everyone has the equal circumstances to perfom best, then everybody is happy, and we all win. Because we all get phenomal entertainment either way. |
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| Ybodonk |
Posted on 14-07-2012 19:07
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Domestique
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issoisso wrote:
Ybodonk wrote:
Wiggins have just stated that he would like to show he's blood values and numbers, but he cant. The reason for this is , that the doctors/medical staff on Sky has adviced him not to, since the numbers and values can easily be misunderstood. And the numbers itself wouldn't show or proof whether you are doped or not. Very interesting statement.
Ah yes, they won't do what they promised they'd do because the fans are too stupid to understand.
The saddest excuse.
Indeed, it is very sad. For everytime i see im in the television, i start to dislike him more and more.
He seems pretty intelligent, i dont know why in the world he stated what i wrote earlier. This was really really dumb.
But either way, UCI has his numbers and values. But that bunch of corrupt of idiots are as hopeless as the donkeys and monkeys running in the Zoo. |
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| CLURPR |
Posted on 15-07-2012 00:42
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Domestique
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Teddy The Creator wrote:
CountArach wrote:
I don't know why people would complain about today's effort in the finale from Wiggins - this is what he is best suited to as a time trialist.
Did people not watch the WC's? Wiggins did this for the entire finale, blew the attackers apart. Voeckler probably would have won if not for him.
Totally agree, heck he even managed to ride off the front at one point! |
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| Movistar |
Posted on 15-07-2012 00:49
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Domestique
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The only reason they could be misunderstood is because we know what good and bad blood values look like and his must obviously look bad.
We have seen good blood values on here before and I am pretty sure we understood them. |
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| pcm2009fan |
Posted on 15-07-2012 17:36
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So today we actually get to question the true meaning of sporting integrity.
Of course it is an interesting debate to discuss the potential cleanliness of suspicious riders, but doping exists and will continue to exist...
We should question the integrity of the likes of Rolland today, not attempt to cynically bring riders down in this hypothetical manner.
And, heck, while we're at it, why don't we open a "Lotto Cheating Thread" cause their actions today were far less excusable than Sky's supposed "approach" to the sport. Of course if a positive test were to be incurred, or perhaps a highly reliable medical case can be brought against Sky, we could maturely discuss the situation.
ps I'm definitely not saying Wiggins'/Sky's sportsmanship today would absolve them of any potential doping, but I'm asking why we are bringing them down when we see far more definitive crimes against the sport occurring with our very own eyes?
Edited by pcm2009fan on 15-07-2012 17:37
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| felix_29 |
Posted on 15-07-2012 17:46
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Ullrich waited for Armstrong and maybe lost a TdF-win there. Has he ever ridden clean?
Acting fair when anyone can see you has nothing to do with cheating without anyone knowing.
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| kumazan |
Posted on 15-07-2012 17:50
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They did nothing wrong. Attacking can't be cheating.
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 15-07-2012 17:59
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Yeah, Hamilton asking Ullrich, Moreau, Vino (?) and a bunch of others to wait for Armstrong, after he had gotten his handle bar caught in a bag, that surely was a proof of integrity, and thus cleanness, by all those happy folks. |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 03:41
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| alexkr00 |
Posted on 15-07-2012 18:13
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Also, you can put it this way - they are so sure about their victory, they don't mind waiting for others when they are in trouble 
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| swsquires |
Posted on 15-07-2012 18:26
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Quick question - any haematologists on here? Didn't think so. If people don't have the full knowledge of haematology it is easy to look at blood numbers and jump to conclusions. For example, in the space of one year I was measured with a haematocrit of 41% and 52%. The latter was not achieved thanks to any drugs, but if I was a pro posting my numbers many might assume something happened.
Simply releasing numbers to the masses is dangerous. They will look at individual numbers in isolation and never truly understand what they are seeing. The human body is extremely complex and is affected by so many factors. Yes, at a basic level we might expect to see haematocrit drop during a grand tour, but factors like dehydration can artificially increase it.
I feel sorry for the truly clean riders. There is clearly nothing they could say or do to avoid being called dopers, other than being mediocre.
On a side note, some of the comments on this thread are very close to the line of slander and outright accusing people of doping without any basis/facts other than disliking team Sky is very dangerous. Personally I would consider closing this thread because if Team Sky wanted to they could probably start legal proceedings against PCM Daily. I'm sure they won't, but I wouldn't blame them if they did given some of the downright disgusting comments on here.
Simon
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| kumazan |
Posted on 15-07-2012 18:34
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swsquires wrote:
Personally I would consider closing this thread because if Team Sky wanted to they could probably start legal proceedings against PCM Daily. I'm sure they won't, but I wouldn't blame them if they did given some of the downright disgusting comments on here.
Ha.
Haha.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
Good joke mate.
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 15-07-2012 18:45
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By that logic we should all hide our heads in the sand, like we did before Summer 1998.
Surely that was the good way to do, so why did we change ? |
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| pcm2009fan |
Posted on 15-07-2012 18:50
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Aquarius wrote:
Yeah, Hamilton asking Ullrich, Moreau, Vino (?) and a bunch of others to wait for Armstrong, after he had gotten his handle bar caught in a bag, that surely was a proof of integrity, and thus cleanness, by all those happy folks.
I very specifically said that this wasn't my point in my final paragraph.
My point is that I think there are worse things to complain about than "potential doping." It is just an opinion of course.
My wording was a little long-winded and I clearly quite a few people have mis-understood here, sorry about that. |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 15-07-2012 18:55
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Nah, but my point, and felix_29's, is that it's not as simple as being integer or not being integer. You can have clean riders waiting or not waiting, or doped ones attacking when a man has a mechanical, just like they could wait for that man. It's independent.
Actually, I'd say that mechanicals and their exploitation or non-exploitation are part of the race (of course it's unfair, but that strikes riders randomly), whereas doping is something deliberate, and thus a bigger issue. |
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| pcm2009fan |
Posted on 15-07-2012 19:12
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For sure I agree that those are seperate issues but, perhaps longingly, I was questioning why we try to bring the riders down even further and scrutinise them without strong, reliable evidence over supposed "doping", when we already have enough (separate) verifiable incidents like today to discuss.
For sure exploiting a rider with mis-fortune is not quite as clear cut as "he doped, so he cheated," but don't you think that today's incidents provide a more stimulating discussion than "he's performing much better than expected, so he doped, and thus cheated" ?
What I mean is that, whilst I think the attempted proof/non-proof of doping has been interesting, I don't like the whole regime of subjective speculation that some are arguing, and I wish events like today were enough to wet the cycnacists' appetites...
To be honest I think I'm being too philosophical here, so I'm maybe not making much of a point (or sense) any more
Edited by pcm2009fan on 15-07-2012 19:13
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 15-07-2012 19:25
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I understand your point. Opinions can easily be expressed about what happened today and in other occasions because facts could be seen by everyone, although it took some more time to learn useful details (tacks, radios not working near the summit, etc.).
The doping discussion is less evident, because we don't have positives tests to back up our point. It's just getting as many dots as possible and connecting them. I find it more interesting because it's more complicated, although you can count me in for a philosophical discussion about whether riders should wait on their opponents' incidents or not.  |
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| dgtgoheels |
Posted on 15-07-2012 21:16
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swsquires wrote:
Quick question - any haematologists on here? Didn't think so. If people don't have the full knowledge of haematology it is easy to look at blood numbers and jump to conclusions. For example, in the space of one year I was measured with a haematocrit of 41% and 52%. The latter was not achieved thanks to any drugs, but if I was a pro posting my numbers many might assume something happened.
What about Lance's spikes in his released blood values a couple of pages back? By your definition he must be clean as the dehydration excuse fits nicely there. Plus, you kinda shot yourself in the foot with the 'no experts in this forum' then give an example of how hematocrit is influenced. 
Simply releasing numbers to the masses is dangerous. They will look at individual numbers in isolation and never truly understand what they are seeing. The human body is extremely complex and is affected by so many factors. Yes, at a basic level we might expect to see haematocrit drop during a grand tour, but factors like dehydration can artificially increase it.
The experts will most likely analyze the numbers and find nothing at all just like those who advised Wiggins. In contrast, the Anti-Sky people will find evidence that he did dope because that's what they are looking for and mistake "noise" for "signals". Same argument can be said for fanboys. Sure the extremes make the loudest noise but no one takes them seriously. Think of the extreme sides of politics. Rational and logical people will be in the middle and that's who the general public will gravitate toward.
Also, I think it would be pretty admirable for Wiggins to release them along with the rest of the Sky riders. Why not? If they've nothing to hide that is. It would send a strong message to future generations that cycling is trying to establish itself as the leading sport against doping (which i think we're doing) and is working hard to earn the respect of fans and those involved/following cycling instead of people looking to halfway down the results page to determine "oh, this guy is clean".
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| felix_29 |
Posted on 15-07-2012 21:30
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If you refer to Lance blood values, you´ll have to link haematocrit to the number of reticulocytes to get reasonable conclusions.
@swsquires: May i ask why you had your haematokrit measured two times? Normally you need a good reason for such an examination.
Edited by felix_29 on 15-07-2012 21:30
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| Ste117 |
Posted on 15-07-2012 21:38
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felix_29 wrote:
If you refer to Lance blood values, you´ll have to link haematocrit to the number of reticulocytes to get reasonable conclusions.
@swsquires: May i ask why you had your haematokrit measured two times? Normally you need a good reason for such an examination.
Doper, oops that's slander, have just contributed to legal proceedings been opened haha
MG Team manager Team Ticos Air Costa Rica
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