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Other Races [v2.0]
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| issoisso |
Posted on 16-08-2008 21:46
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Goldberger wrote:
But you say that you think Colombia and Garmin are probably clean, and they got 8th and 5th in the GC in the tour, Vandevelde was on the same level as most of the other GC candidates in the tour, isn't that a sign that most of the unbeatable riders(doping) from the other years are gone?
I said "most riders", not "all riders".
Goldberger wrote:
From what I saw in this Tour the only "incredible" peformances came from Ricco and the Saunier Duval team.
Have you seen the relative power measures of the riders? Sastre's Alpe d'Huez performance would've blown the Sauniers out of the water. performances have diminished little from past years.
Want evidence of less doping?
Compare the number of wins of spanish and italian riders this year to previous years. i have the statistics somewhere. they're far less.
Look how difficult it's been for the peloton to catch breaks when in previous years it was a piece of cake.
Look how many clean riders have said that the pace is slower this year.
But don't think for a second that they're all clean. far from it. So watch and enjoy, and trust the authorities to one day clean the sport fully. Until then, don't berate riders of one race when the same can be applied to almost all others
Edited by issoisso on 16-08-2008 21:46
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Goldberger |
Posted on 16-08-2008 21:56
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Sastre peformance in Alpe D'Huez happened because it was the first stage he really used all his powers, all the stages before he was protected by the CCS team and he was the GC rider who had the easiest ride to the Alpe ( no falls, great team and no attacks). And I will attack the Tour of Portugal because I know the organisors of this race because I know they do not take the doping problem seriously while ASO has taken a strong anti doping stance the last few years.
And it's a shame for Portugese cycling as the tour of Portugal could have been a great race and a incredible scene for the young portugese riders to get contracts with Pro Tour teams, instead the whole tour is connected to doping and no big team will sign portugese riders. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 16-08-2008 22:10
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Goldberger wrote:
Sastre peformance in Alpe D'Huez happened because it was the first stage he really used all his powers, all the stages before he was protected by the CCS team and he was the GC rider who had the easiest ride to the Alpe ( no falls, great team and no attacks).
News flash for you, let's compare wattages:
put Sastre on the Alpe d'Huez at his Alpe d'Huez performance
put Riccò at the same place with his "fabulous" Col d'Aspin performance
guess who would win? SASTRE!
Now take out Sastre and put in Kohl's Prato Nevoso performance. so it's Riccò vs. Kohl.
KOHL WINS!
let's take the greats for which there are wattage readouts. LeMond and Hinault (let's ignore the doped greats of the 90s)
Hinault and LeMond if put into this year's tour on the Alpe stage, the best performance of Hinault's career (381 relative watts) and the best of LeMond's career (390 watts) would've had them finish 3:20 behind (LeMond) and 3:50 behind (Hinault)
if that sounds plausible, then go ahead and believe that the current riders are a race of super men.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 25-11-2024 05:53
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| Dan_Grr |
Posted on 16-08-2008 22:18
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*portuguese. *portuguese *portuguese. Gueeese. Guueese. With a gueeee....se.
I hope Vitor Rodrigues, Tiago Machado and Rui Costa are not doped and get the hell out of Portugal as quickly as Portugal. As with football players, they can improve a lot faster being in other countries and in other teams. Better budgets, better conditions, better improvements.
They are the only hope of Portugal ever making any name in the professional cycling in the future. If there are any more worthwile talents, isso you are free to add them, but I don't think there is. |
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| Goldberger |
Posted on 16-08-2008 22:19
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How can you compare Sastre's peformance with Hinault and Le Mond's peformances when you probably know that this generation of riders has better equipment, more effective training schedule's, easier racing schedules and shorter stages. Racing and the human body developes, it's natural that riders go faster up the Alpe D'Huez now than for 25 years ago
Plus you state Hinault's time as you clearly think he was not doped but how could he beat Joop Zoetemelk several times in the tour then, when Zoetemelk has admitted to doping and has been caught in the tour, it doesn't make sense
Edited by Goldberger on 16-08-2008 22:23
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| issoisso |
Posted on 16-08-2008 22:25
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Goldberger wrote:
How can you compare Sastre's peformance with Hinault and Le Mond's peformances when you probably know that this generation of riders has better equipment, more effective training schedule's, easier racing schedules and shorter stages.
which do not account for anything even remotely similar to the differences felt.
Goldberger wrote:
Racing and the human body developes, it's natural that riders go faster up the Alpe D'Huez now than for 25 years ago
stay in your innocence. I can categorically guarantee beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are wrong. But I understand that you think that these perfoemances (including Cancellara's 410 watts on the Croix-de-Fer which would've dropped the 1990 Greg LeMond quite easily) because I once thought like you until I saw the scientific evidence.
But then, tell me this. If these riders aren't doped, and if VO2Max can only be significantly increased by doping, how do you explain that Greg LeMond's VO2Max which was number 1 among professional riders in 1990 would today be inferior to 52% of professionals.
go ahead. I'm waiting for you to explain that one 
I know you dearly want to believe. But it's like believing that the israeli government want peaces with Arabs: it's a pipe dream.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Goldberger |
Posted on 16-08-2008 22:35
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I will admit I can't explain the mystery with the watt percentages, I have no clue about this thing and you clearly know much more than me about this. But you use Greg Le Mond as an example of how easily he would have been beaten by today's riders, do you think he was clean? We know doping was used in the 1960s,1970s and did it dissapeair when Le Mond was racing? I dont think that, so how could he beat riders who doped? |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 16-08-2008 22:40
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I'm just using LeMond as an example because he and Hinault are the oldest legends for whom there are watts measures. Hinault himself even skipped several doping tests. flat out refused to do them.
also, for older ones, the roads were terrible and even if there were measures, they would be greatly affected by the roads' quality.
Doping was used all the way back in the 19th century by the way, so it didn't just show up in the 60s. The difference is that EPO showed up in the late 80s. then blood transfusions. And cocaine, heroine, amphetamines and cortico are peanuts compared to EPO and blood transfusions.
And thus we went from 390 watts of LeMond in 1990 and 390 watts of LeMond in 91....to 440 watts of Indurain in 1991
to give it some perspective, that 50 watt difference is the difference between david moncoutié and carlos sastre on a given climb
Edited by issoisso on 16-08-2008 22:42
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Goldberger |
Posted on 16-08-2008 22:47
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Hmm ok, I think we can agree to disagree. It's difficult to know what to believe in, riders who have angel faces and deny doping can be caught the next day, so it's difficult to know who is clean anymore. I still do think that race organisors in Spain and Italy would fight doping the same way ASO does in the tour. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 16-08-2008 22:50
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yeah. but until further proof, I believe in most of the riders from a half-dozen teams.
Race organizers in Spain Italy and Portugal will never fight doping. There's CONI and that is literally it.
Even the spanish government goes to the extent of it's powers to protect confirmed dopers.
As me and someone else from this forum were discussing today on MSN: We'll love the day Contador is caught if it ever arrives.
Notice we last said that to each other about Riccò about a month ago
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 16-08-2008 23:06
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issoisso wrote:
if that sounds plausible, then go ahead and believe that the current riders are a race of super men. They are. Compared to you and me. LeMond and Hinault were some sort of supermen too. Their physical potential was probably more or less the same that today's leaders.
Of course we can expect slight improvements, years after years, decades after decades. But the human race didn't face any profound change in the 1990's (fast food and obesity maybe, but that's not what I mean), today's humans are more or less built in the same wood as humans from 10 or 20 years ago.
Those wattages calculations show one thing : a loser like Moncoutié would probably be a very top climber if all riders had been clean. Too weak to win a Grand Tour, but he'd have owned mountain stages. Dope spoils clean riders. Big time. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 16-08-2008 23:08
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That's who I feel sorry for. The clean riders who get nothing. Like Moinard, the 1st GC rider who I trust 100%
Not Moncoutié though, not sorry for him. Not with his past
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 16-08-2008 23:11
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issoisso wrote:
That's who I feel sorry for. The clean riders who get nothing. Like Moinard, the 1st GC rider who I trust 100%
Not Moncoutié though, not sorry for him. Not with his past You mean as he's been a Cofidis rider for years even before 1998 (and before 2004 for Cofidis riders) ?
If that's case, well, all riders involved in the 2004 claimed he was the only Cofidis rider who never took anything, not even daring to take Vitamin C pills. Another Bassons actually. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 16-08-2008 23:12
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still: don't trust him
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 16-08-2008 23:15
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Ah well... I do. I'm a bit unsure about Casar too, who finished ahead of Moinard. He was Jean Floc'h (Bretagne) for two seasons, they have quite a bad reputation here, but it's mostly because of their oldest riders (Pétilleau, Ravaleu, Lelarge, etc.). |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 16-08-2008 23:16
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Casar is very outspoken against doping. But he was 5th in the 2006 Giro. what does that say?
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 16-08-2008 23:20
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That he went into a long breakaway that gave him a big time advantage (7 or 8 minutes, from memory) and only reached 400 W once during that Giro. He rather averaged 385-390, which has credibility (but is never a proof of being clean). |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 16-08-2008 23:21
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but on quite a few stages he was there with the top10 riders.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 16-08-2008 23:24
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https://www.cyclis...p?sid=2305
Sorry, I underrated his wattages, but still he was that high in the GC because he gained time by going into a breakaway. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 16-08-2008 23:26
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sure he was high, but taking minutes out of Pellizotti and other guys in mountain stages where he wasn't in the break, 1 minute behind Savoldelli and Piepoli on a stage with the Tonale, Gavia, Mortirolo and Aprica?
I believe he might be clean now, but......then? no way
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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