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Ardennes classics
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| pangare |
Posted on 25-04-2010 23:27
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Domestique
Posts: 443
Joined: 29-09-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Kind of LOL.
1st, look at the number of Portuguese riders in ProTour. For a nation like the ours, with a minimal support to developing teams, thats kind of awesome.
Portugal won the 2008 U23 Nations Cup. Nelson Oliveira is U23 Silver Medalist in TT. Tiago Machado is up there with the best this year in all of his races. Sergio Paulinho won a Olympic Medal. Rui Costa already won HC races in his first year in the ProTour. Yes, Portugal is a shit 
And I willl explain this to you. So, if you train with 35 seconds intervals or 30 seconds thats not much of a difference in a race because you can't predict for how much time you will be at your limit during a climb or a cross wind. For example, I do Intervals in Climb. If i take 1 min to do the climb or 1.05 thats not so different to me if I do that at my maximum. Maybe you train just focusing on times and calculating meticulously each second and watt. Maybe if you start just suffering and don't care too much about the numbers you will become a better cyclist.
And I wonder what did your methodic and 100% efficient training have brought you. For me, it has brought a 6th in Tour of Portugal in my categorie and a call from the National Team. |
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 25-04-2010 23:42
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Team Leader
Posts: 6716
Joined: 13-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Kind of LOL? Indeed. Especially when you read what I've already written, and how you're just repeating what I already said.
rjc_43 wrote:
The problem with motorpacing and intervals are that they are structured.
Races aren't structured. If you keep rigidly to keeping a tab on intervals, you won't be able to cope with someone who can attack for longer, or more frequently. Sure, a 30 second interval isn't much different from a 35 second attack in a race, but what if the next guy attacks straight after, rather than waiting for the one minute recovery period you've been training at.
Hence how training intervals and motor pacing cannot substitute for racing.
pangare wrote:
Kind of LOL.
1st, look at the number of Portuguese riders in ProTour. For a nation like the ours, with a minimal support to developing teams, thats kind of awesome.
Portugal won the 2008 U23 Nations Cup. Nelson Oliveira is U23 Silver Medalist in TT. Tiago Machado is up there with the best this year in all of his races. Sergio Paulinho won a Olympic Medal. Rui Costa already won HC races in his first year in the ProTour. Yes, Portugal is a shit
You said it, not me. Well, I did say it. I also said most were drugged to hell. Which I still stand by. And that you're behind on training your youth, well, again, you are. "Minimal support" means you agree with me too.
Also, Machado - Radioshack - See a link? (Need I mention a certain Asian rider?)
And I willl explain this to you. So, if you train with 35 seconds intervals or 30 seconds thats not much of a difference in a race because you can't predict for how much time you will be at your limit during a climb or a cross wind. For example, I do Intervals in Climb. If i take 1 min to do the climb or 1.05 thats not so different to me if I do that at my maximum. Maybe you train just focusing on times and calculating meticulously each second and watt. Maybe if you start just suffering and don't care too much about the numbers you will become a better cyclist.
Exactly my point. Which I've already said. Which wasn't my point anyway. My point was, in an interval you do 100% of your effort for 1 minute. Then you recover. Then you repeat.
In a race, you do 110% of your effort in a 1 minute effort. Then you don't recover, because someone else attacks. So you repeat immediately. Training cannot replicate racing. Cannot. Will not.
The only way it's possible is dope. At least as far as I can see.
And I wonder what did your methodic and 100% efficient training have brought you. For me, it has brought a 6th in Tour of Portugal in my categorie and a call from the National Team.
My methodic training has seen me progress from not finishing any race, to being able to finish national races in 3 years. I'm happy with my progression. Again, my progression comes from racing, not from training. Training lets me finish the races, the racing gives me that extra bit to go for results.
I've come 2nd, 3rd, 5th four times, and multiple other top 10's in my own category. However, my own category doesn't mean jack shit.
A top 6 in Tour of Portugal. Great. Well done. Climber are you? Well, welcome to a breakaway riders world.
[url=cleavercycling.co.uk]  [/url] |
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| pangare |
Posted on 26-04-2010 00:02
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Domestique
Posts: 443
Joined: 29-09-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Part 1 - Of course they can't substitute racing but they can be pretty similar. Thats why we have some team trainings too when there are plenty of attacks and counter attacks that makes us reach our limit. But for example, i've been doing for 3 weeks only trainings alone and I'm doing pretty well in races with my intervals trainings and there's one thing that you are forgetting. If you do 1min at 100% and you are at your limit, the rest is too so everybody is suffering. Not just you and me.
Part 2 - Well, Machado is doped because he is in Radioshack that only had 1 positive with an Asian Guy that could had taken that substance easily alone ? You really like to see things by your side.
Part 3 - Already answered in Part 1.
Part 4 - You have to train to progress. If you don't train, you will use your races as training and the point of races is to show and demonstrate what we have trained.
And again, you have failed in criticising Portugal because we are pretty competitive. Just look at Rafael Reis that finished 9th at Paris Roubaix Junior when we don't have a single race with that caracteristics in Portugal.
But sure, when you race everybody is awesome and in Portugal there are only dopeheads who race well because they dope.
And my speciality is climbing and I'm pretty sure that one day I will be at ProTour and it won't be carrying bottles or doing shitty breakways because I want to be a winner. |
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 26-04-2010 00:25
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Team Leader
Posts: 6716
Joined: 13-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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pangare wrote:
Part 1 - Of course they can't substitute racing but they can be pretty similar. Thats why we have some team trainings too when there are plenty of attacks and counter attacks that makes us reach our limit. But for example, i've been doing for 3 weeks only trainings alone and I'm doing pretty well in races with my intervals trainings and there's one thing that you are forgetting. If you do 1min at 100% and you are at your limit, the rest is too so everybody is suffering. Not just you and me.
Part 2 - Well, Machado is doped because he is in Radioshack that only had 1 positive with an Asian Guy that could had taken that substance easily alone ? You really like to see things by your side.
Part 3 - Already answered in Part 1.
Part 4 - You have to train to progress. If you don't train, you will use your races as training and the point of races is to show and demonstrate what we have trained.
And again, you have failed in criticising Portugal because we are pretty competitive. Just look at Rafael Reis that finished 9th at Paris Roubaix Junior when we don't have a single race with that caracteristics in Portugal.
But sure, when you race everybody is awesome and in Portugal there are only dopeheads who race well because they dope.
And my speciality is climbing and I'm pretty sure that one day I will be at ProTour and it won't be carrying bottles or doing shitty breakways because I want to be a winner.
I'd love to see your physiological stats. 
Reis came 9th in Paris Roubaix. McLay came 2nd. We don't have any cobbled classics either. The closest thing we have is East Midlands CiCle Classic. Which most Juniors are refused entrance to.
Machado isn't the only one doped. Everyone is Brits too.
Just because you're at the limit, doesn't mean everyone else is.
At the Pro Tour level, it's physically impossible to just jump into a race without previous race fitness, and win. *excluding the start of the season*
Unless you've taken something to give you an extra kick. It's just not possible.
I wish you all the best in getting to the Pro Tour. I also wish you the most amount of luck in staying clear of any supplements.
Again, in Portugal everyone's on Dope? No. In the Pro Tour everyone's on Dope? Highly likely.
Again, to sum up what this argument was about:
You can't expect to win a Pro Tour/Historic race/monument/stage race without having previously raced. A fair amount. Not just one race.
Regardless of how effective your intervals/motor pacing is in getting you to your best shape outside of racing. When you're pitched against riders who've previously been racing. It's impossible to beat them (at the top level).
[url=cleavercycling.co.uk] [/url] |
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| doddy13 |
Posted on 26-04-2010 08:05
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7891
Joined: 04-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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I've slept on it, whilst everyone is right to be angry with a vino win.
HOWEVER, he has served his suspension.
Valverde hasn't, he got 3rd.
There's no point slapping a schleck - Sean Kelly on "Who needs a slap"
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 14:47
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| Xavier |
Posted on 26-04-2010 09:44
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 933
Joined: 21-09-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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agree |
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 26-04-2010 09:53
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 29989
Joined: 20-10-2006
PCM$: 200.00
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doddy13 wrote:
I've slept on it, whilst everyone is right to be angry with a vino win.
HOWEVER, he has served his suspension.
Valverde hasn't, he got 3rd.
I didn't have any comments yesterday, simply because I didn't really know what to think. Usually, I don't care about suspected dopers winning - after all, the guy the suspected doper beats is likely to be just as doped.
The problem here, at least for me, is that I'd like cycling to get rid of doping eventually. The way to do this is to catch the big fish - like Basso, Vinokourov, Rasmussen, etc. Seeing them return and win huge races such as Liege - Bastogne - Liege is, to me, a symbol of the system's failure. One step forward, two back.
So, my problem isn't Vinokourov. My problem is that we finally got rid of a top doper. Two years later, he's back, competing at the same level as before.
Conclusion: +1 for life time bans. And congrats to Vinokourov for being better than his competitors
Edited by CrueTrue on 26-04-2010 09:54
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| pangare |
Posted on 26-04-2010 10:18
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Domestique
Posts: 443
Joined: 29-09-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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rjc_43 wrote:
pangare wrote:
Part 1 - Of course they can't substitute racing but they can be pretty similar. Thats why we have some team trainings too when there are plenty of attacks and counter attacks that makes us reach our limit. But for example, i've been doing for 3 weeks only trainings alone and I'm doing pretty well in races with my intervals trainings and there's one thing that you are forgetting. If you do 1min at 100% and you are at your limit, the rest is too so everybody is suffering. Not just you and me.
Part 2 - Well, Machado is doped because he is in Radioshack that only had 1 positive with an Asian Guy that could had taken that substance easily alone ? You really like to see things by your side.
Part 3 - Already answered in Part 1.
Part 4 - You have to train to progress. If you don't train, you will use your races as training and the point of races is to show and demonstrate what we have trained.
And again, you have failed in criticising Portugal because we are pretty competitive. Just look at Rafael Reis that finished 9th at Paris Roubaix Junior when we don't have a single race with that caracteristics in Portugal.
But sure, when you race everybody is awesome and in Portugal there are only dopeheads who race well because they dope.
And my speciality is climbing and I'm pretty sure that one day I will be at ProTour and it won't be carrying bottles or doing shitty breakways because I want to be a winner.
I'd love to see your physiological stats.
Reis came 9th in Paris Roubaix. McLay came 2nd. We don't have any cobbled classics either. The closest thing we have is East Midlands CiCle Classic. Which most Juniors are refused entrance to.
Machado isn't the only one doped. Everyone is Brits too.
Just because you're at the limit, doesn't mean everyone else is.
At the Pro Tour level, it's physically impossible to just jump into a race without previous race fitness, and win. *excluding the start of the season*
Unless you've taken something to give you an extra kick. It's just not possible.
I wish you all the best in getting to the Pro Tour. I also wish you the most amount of luck in staying clear of any supplements.
Again, in Portugal everyone's on Dope? No. In the Pro Tour everyone's on Dope? Highly likely.
Again, to sum up what this argument was about:
You can't expect to win a Pro Tour/Historic race/monument/stage race without having previously raced. A fair amount. Not just one race.
Regardless of how effective your intervals/motor pacing is in getting you to your best shape outside of racing. When you're pitched against riders who've previously been racing. It's impossible to beat them (at the top level).
But Andy Schleck has done some races before the Ardenes. Look at Sastre for example. He does shitty results in every single race before his main objective but when it really matters he is there upfront. So issoisso can't say that just because Andy was 13th or 14th at Pais Vasco and has showed to be one of the strongest at Liége doesn't mean he is on doping.
Good luck for your carreer too and maybe someday we will be both fighting for LBL  |
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| Crommy |
Posted on 26-04-2010 10:52
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World Champion
Posts: 10018
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
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doddy13 wrote:
I've slept on it, whilst everyone is right to be angry with a vino win.
HOWEVER, he has served his suspension.
Valverde hasn't, he got 3rd.
He may have served his suspension, but he still refuses to admit he was doped. And obviously he's still doped.
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 26-04-2010 11:03
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Team Leader
Posts: 6716
Joined: 13-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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pangare wrote:
Good luck for your carreer too and maybe someday we will be both fighting for LBL
I doubt it. I'd love to be good on hills, but that ain't ever gunna happen.
[url=cleavercycling.co.uk] [/url] |
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| pangare |
Posted on 26-04-2010 11:15
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Domestique
Posts: 443
Joined: 29-09-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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I'm not really explosive too. Long and hard climbs are my favorites  |
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 26-04-2010 11:25
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Team Leader
Posts: 6716
Joined: 13-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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For my height, to be a climber or puncheur, I'd need to weigh about 10-15kg less. And I am in no way fat or overweight.
[url=cleavercycling.co.uk] [/url] |
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| hondo |
Posted on 26-04-2010 12:59
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Free Agent
Posts: 123
Joined: 23-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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rjc_43 wrote:
Machado isn't the only one doped. Everyone is Brits too.
Common attitude among people with zero talent or no personal road race experience. |
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 26-04-2010 12:59
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Team Leader
Posts: 6716
Joined: 13-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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hondo wrote:
rjc_43 wrote:
Machado isn't the only one doped. Everyone is Brits too.
Common attitude among people with zero talent or no personal road race experience.
HA!
[url=cleavercycling.co.uk] [/url] |
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| Bosskardo |
Posted on 26-04-2010 15:15
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Sprinter
Posts: 1559
Joined: 07-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Crommy wrote:
He may have served his suspension, but he still refuses to admit he was doped. And obviously he's still doped.
Is Valverde any different beside the fact he hasn't served his punishment jet.
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| Wilier |
Posted on 26-04-2010 15:21
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5405
Joined: 28-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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To me, it would have been worse if Valverde won. At least I have seen an exciting race, too bad for Kolobnev. |
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| Crommy |
Posted on 26-04-2010 15:22
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World Champion
Posts: 10018
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
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Bosskardo wrote:
Crommy wrote:
He may have served his suspension, but he still refuses to admit he was doped. And obviously he's still doped.
Is Valverde any different beside the fact he hasn't served his punishment jet.
Nope - he's just as bad if not worse.
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| Sherpa |
Posted on 26-04-2010 23:00
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Stagiare
Posts: 200
Joined: 18-06-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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XD pangare you're really funny and too much naive.
I'm sorry to disapoint you but you'll never reach Pro Tour. You could be very pleased with yourself if you ever become more than a "shitty breakway" professional rider.
I know you, and I know portuguese cycling very well. I can tell you that to reach Pro Tour one day you would have already to be doing at least what Rafael Reis is doing, and even him doesn't have an assured future.
Training is very important, I see you could do well in that field. But at Pro Tour level talent, great talent, is an essential part of the equation. |
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| MrSpartacus |
Posted on 27-04-2010 15:03
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Free Agent
Posts: 101
Joined: 14-12-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Maybe this sounds a bit strange, but nice victory for Astana. Had tasted better if Contador had won ...
Team Saxo Bank - Sungard
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| pangare |
Posted on 27-04-2010 19:23
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Domestique
Posts: 443
Joined: 29-09-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Sherpa wrote:
XD pangare you're really funny and too much naive.
I'm sorry to disapoint you but you'll never reach Pro Tour. You could be very pleased with yourself if you ever become more than a "shitty breakway" professional rider.
I know you, and I know portuguese cycling very well. I can tell you that to reach Pro Tour one day you would have already to be doing at least what Rafael Reis is doing, and even him doesn't have an assured future.
Training is very important, I see you could do well in that field. But at Pro Tour level talent, great talent, is an essential part of the equation.
Question 1 - Who are you ?
Question 2 - I have seen many professionals of nowadays who were shitty riders in the youth categories. What you have to say about that ?
Question 3 - Are you a kind of Medium ?
Question 4 - You're stupid ( Ouch this isn't a question ). |
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