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Suggestions for 2023
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| roturn |
Posted on 08-08-2023 06:48
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Team Manager
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you are limited to 5 total trainings (that is elsewhere in the rules)
Can anyone try to find this rule in any official post?
I and many others always had it like this, but after recent discussions and actual rule exceptions I was not able to find that there was such limit.
Regarding the 10 stat exception rule a limit would be needed to limit those in case we change that one.
So would be good to be sure about that "hidden" rule first. |
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| Fabianski |
Posted on 08-08-2023 07:01
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Apparently that 5 rider rule did exist for quite some time, so some of the long-term managers think it's still valid. However, the last time it really appeared in the Riders Training thread was in 2018:
ManGame-Admin wrote:
Furthermore, each team is limited to a total of 5 stats of training each season - across all riders.
From 2019 onwards, that rule was gone. Or at least I couldn't find it anywhere else.
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| ShinyShinx |
Posted on 08-08-2023 07:03
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I think it'd be valueable to create one document, a rulebook, with every rule inside of it. As a new player I've found a big struggle in finding certain rules or mechanics, they cost me a lot of time to find and I had to bother other players a lot to help me find or understand certain things. |
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| roturn |
Posted on 08-08-2023 07:09
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Team Manager
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Indeed since 2019 the rule was no longer in place apparently.
Last year it kind of came in again with the 5 training rule and up to 8 riders with extra costs then, which I planned to get out again but in case of such 10 stat exception, it might be good to have again.
Regarding the rule book, usually all rules should be in 2-3 threads only.
Most important the "rule book" itself, which is the transfer rules.
Then specific rules in the training thread and each file thread, e.g. race selection, stat gains, wildcards etc. Those don`t change usually and just keep the same year for year. |
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| Fabianski |
Posted on 08-08-2023 07:13
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Well, rules change every year, so you'd need a new rulebook every year. But I agree that it would be nice to have one thread of rules per year, summarizing them all. Now you have to look for information in the Goals/Calendar thread, in the XP/Wildcard/etc. thread, in the Training thread, in the Race Planner thread, in the Race Selection thread...
Obviously, with time you more or less know where to find which piece of information, but I agree it can be time consuming.
I'd however still have a separate thread for transfer rules, given that reading them is decisive for your transfers entry ticket.
One thing will never change, though - you'll always be asking other players for some details.  I guess no-one knows all the rules, and others might be quicker to find the relevant details.
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| SotD |
Posted on 08-08-2023 07:17
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World Champion
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I do somewhat agree with ShinyShinx. Even as a long term manager I sometimes struggle to find what I'm looking for, either in rules, different sheets or so.
It would be great to have a "2023 Rules and documents" post, pinned at the top of the Announcement thread. Then we could add a new reply with different aspects and keep post 1 as a sort of index. This would reduce 10-15 posts to 1, where everything is. All excel sheets for downloads would be here etc.
As a 2023 alternative we could create such a thread and link to the exisiting posts, rather than copying it all in there.
I'll be happy to create it, if people are interested.
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 03-12-2024 19:00
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| Fabianski |
Posted on 08-08-2023 07:37
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That'd be great 
I think ICL's Information & Links thread could be a good inspiration for this, as I find that one really helpful.
Ideally, the relevant part of the rules should still be copied to the respective threads (e.g. calendar selection, or training), but having everything in one place would be great.
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| roturn |
Posted on 08-08-2023 07:38
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Team Manager
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Feel free to create such thread, we can make it pinned then.
Can link to all threads including rules and files and maybe a short information text what to find in each? |
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| knockout |
Posted on 08-08-2023 08:01
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Grand Tour Champion
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https://pcmdaily....st_1301788
Here is where the 5 trainings per team rule was removed. Previously there were repeated wishes for it to allow managers to spread out training instead of only training the top riders - similar to what SotD did last season. Which imo needs to remain possible.
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters! |
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| roturn |
Posted on 08-08-2023 08:06
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Thanks.
Right now I highly consider to bring back last years change with the 5+3 training while at the same time "cutting" or changing the 10 rider stat exception for small stats with some kind of max stat limit. |
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| roturn |
Posted on 08-08-2023 08:45
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Team Manager
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Just trying to calculate a bit on lvl 4xp riders in C1/C2.
An obvious start was to see if 0,5xp in C1 would work as this is the actual HC value right now.
Let`s say a rider is having 50rd in C1, this would just be 25xp.
As many 4.x riders have like ~70-80 rd in CT, this would mean, even when joining lots of C1 and HC races, you could just go up to 35-40xp, making it more than 2 years to max.
Idea would be to higher HC to 0,7 or something with C1 to 0,5. It would probably still end as ~40xp for 4.x in CT only.
It would surely be an improvement already and many level 4 riders aren`t at 4.0 anyway but already in the middle of level 4.
Would like to have a quick discussion here before transfers. |
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| Fabianski |
Posted on 08-08-2023 08:55
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I think this would be a pretty good start.
One of the issues right now is that CT teams can rather easily bring level 3 riders to level 4 - but currently they can't really go significantly higher than 4.00. With the new XP distribution, riders could reach let's say 4.20 in the year they reach level 4, so with 40XP/year it might work out to max them in 2 years.
Another effect of this would be that PCT teams could max their own riders more easily without a PT loan - which may or may not be desired. It would definitely be good for me right now, giving me more freedom for Schmid's schedule if I really keep him to max him, so I might be a little biased on the subject
Would be interesting to hear what PT teams think about this, as it would likely drop the amount of PT loans per year (which some of them rather heavily rely on).
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| knockout |
Posted on 08-08-2023 09:01
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Grand Tour Champion
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Fabianski wrote:
Another effect of this would be that PCT teams could max their own riders more easily without a PT loan - which may or may not be desired. It would definitely be good for me right now, giving me more freedom for Schmid's schedule if I really keep him to max him, so I might be a little biased on the subject
Would be interesting to hear what PT teams think about this, as it would likely drop the amount of PT loans per year (which some of them rather heavily rely on).
Wouldnt be a fan of changing the XP table for PCT to make it even easier for them to level up riders. Imo, this should only be added for CT teams similar to how the PTHC category has different values for PCT and PT teams. Would make the XP table more complicated but might be worth it.
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters! |
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| roturn |
Posted on 08-08-2023 09:16
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CT should have priority indeed.
Just checked a little bit with the way it was written above.
Actually this would still mainly favour CT over PCT.
e.g. Schmid or Vansevenant. They have some value already and in PCT they still would probably focus on PTHC or HC as first is giving 1,1 xp per rd in level 4. So even if PCT would get 0,5xp or so for C1 as well, this would not change a lot and not sure it would need a CT only table.
For PTHC and PT/PCT changes it made sense due to the number of "forced" rd in PTHC bands and that both of them already have "forced" races in PT and HC already, where PTHC is just in the middle of this.
e.g. Vansevenant has 39 rd in PCT. That`s a maximum of 19,5xp I would get from C1 races, if he races nothing but C1. More realistically C1 racing is a lot less making it like 5-10 xp only in addition to what he gets with the actual table. |
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| knockout |
Posted on 08-08-2023 09:39
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Both of Schmid and Vansevenant are extreme example with very little RDs compared to the average PCT talent and thus profit the least from this change.
Counter example: Torjus Sleen. 80 RDs.
Lets say he adds 20 HC RDs and 20 C1 RDs and thats an extra 24 XP on top of PTHC XP. Add some wildcards and maximize his schedule more and you probably can max him fairly easily from 4.18 in pct which would be a radical change to the system.
Cant do the maths right now but those are the riders that benefit more from this change and should definitely be looked at in detail.
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters! |
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| SotD |
Posted on 08-08-2023 09:54
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roturn wrote:
Thanks.
Right now I highly consider to bring back last years change with the 5+3 training while at the same time "cutting" or changing the 10 rider stat exception for small stats with some kind of max stat limit.
The +1mio fee for 8 trainings is really hurtful though when you already have to pay 20% tax for every income you make that will make 5+ remotely realistic. It would drastically reduce the chance of ever making a setup like mine viable. It's difficult enough as it is, but to find 500-1.000K + tax every season is just impossible.
I have a hard time finding incentitive to keep it, when nobody besides me and maybe one more would ever train 6 different riders in a season. Is it worse to train 4 mediocre riders +2 than 3 strong riders +1/2? IMO it isn't, and the valuation of the trainings cover this perfectly fine with differentiation. No reason to start levelling out the differences between eg. 76-78 trainings towards 80-82 trainings with those added expenses.
When looking at cheaper training for lower stat riders you could make an exemption for riders with an OVL lower than 75 f.e.
Riders at the OVL of 73,0 or lower is only paying the fee of the stat, and not looking at the OVL.
Riders between 73,0-74,0 will pay for the for the fee of the stat +100K to cover the OVL.
Riders between 74,0-75,0 will pay for the fee of the stat +150K to cover the OVL.
Example:
Jean Bosco Nsengimana OVL 73,55. I wish to train his SPR from 66-68. This would normally cost 2x OVL 74 = 900.000
With changes:
67 150K +100K OVL
68 175K +100K OVL
= 525.000
Another Example:
Georgios Stavrakakis OVL 74,95. I wish to make him 70HI.
Normal cost 2x OVL 75 = 1.000.000
With changes:
69 200K + 150K
70 250K + 150K
= 750.000
This will open some interesting choices for lower level riders. In the case of Stavrakakis he might have moved above 75 OVL with the HI training, haven't checked... This would change the cost of the training back to normal obviously.
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| Ulrich Ulriksen |
Posted on 09-08-2023 03:29
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Sorry don't have much time to contribute right now. But . . . .
I think if you are removing the 10 stat rule you definitely need a team limit. There was one in last year on all trainings but agree that might not be needed. My suggestion would be remove that but add a rule that limits a team to say 5 of the low stat trainings.
So to edit my edit (red deleted, green added):
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Rider Average Exemption
If the stat you want to train is more than 10 values worse than the rider's average, then the cost is different
The maximum a stat can be raised to using this method is 67.
A stat can only be raised by 2 points under this "rider average exemption" where the new value of the stat is more than 10 values less than the rider's rounded overall average. Also, no more than 2 different stats can be raised using this exemption method per season.
A single rider can not receive more than 2 increases per year (2 in one stat or one in two stats) and a team can not do more than 5 increases using this exemption per year.
The following table is important, it reflects the new value of the stat:
67 150,000
66 125,000
65 or less 100,000
1st Increase: The cost relates to the table above.
2nd Increase in same stat in the same year: The cost is double that of the table above.
[/spoiler]
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| Eden95 |
Posted on 09-08-2023 03:35
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Sounds good to me
Indosat - ANZ HQ
"This Schleck sandwich is going to cause serious indigestion for Evans" - Phil Liggett |
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| Ulrich Ulriksen |
Posted on 09-08-2023 03:36
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Directeur Sportif
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On the Level 4, I was thinking c2 not c1 which removes the benefit to PCT teams. I am inclined to agree with Knockout that adding it to C1 changes the picture for PCT teams and don't think that was the goal here.
I guess it is kind of weird to have riders score 4.x points in C2 but not C1 and it makes the table less linear but not sure that is the biggest consideration.
The other simple option is to allow each CT team to award 50 xp to each 4.x rider on their roster at the end of the season. That doesn't require any changes to the xp rules but does complicate level up a little.
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| roturn |
Posted on 09-08-2023 05:51
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Team Manager
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Regarding the C1/C2. As PCT teams get more xp on level 4 by reaching PTHC/HC, the amount of C1 xp is not really giving them a big advantage over the status quo. They can only decide to race more suited C1 races instead of sending a lvl4 rider to all bigger races but to a cost of losing a few xp actually. In most cases, this will be small amounts of xp from C1.
For CT though, the amount of xp you can get from joining C1/HC is a lot more valuable than the status quo.
Having xp from C2 only but not C1 would indeed be weird imo while also the fix 50xp for nothing would not be ideal even though it obviously is in total an easy solution.
Right now I would actually tend to make it a small change like C1 0,5 xp for level 4 and HC to 0,6 maybe or remaining at 0,5.
Then after one year testing we should have a better picture how 50 managers in PCT/CT have used that option.
I would right now expect to see CT gain around 30-40 xp in average while PCT is like additional 5-15 xp in average, which imo would be okay values. As many level 4 riders aren't at 4.0 but instead already between 4.20-4.50, this would still be 2 seasons for CT while many CT teams actually will promote and have one PCT season as well in a 2-year span to make it possible even more.
@knockout post. Talked to him afterwards as well. It was a small confusion there as HC already gives 0,5 xp and not 0 as his calculation used. So the additional PCT xp is smaller than the numbers there.
@low trainings. Actually I considered something like your idea as well yesterday. No regular limit for trainings but a limit on the small trainings.
Except your last green part, not sure it must necessarily be same stat, but same rider having two small trainings, the second will be doubled? Probably as we talk about 60s training, it doesn't matter a lot really. Another thing to maybe check how much it is used and how much the stat balance is changed.
Edited by roturn on 09-08-2023 05:56
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