|
The Doping Game
|
| Aquarius |
Posted on 30-09-2008 16:13
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5220
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
There's being dropped and being dropped. Being dropped after 30 km is absolutely not like being dropped by heavy dopeheads in the last mountain of a GT mountain stage. |
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 30-09-2008 16:21
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
mb2612 wrote:
has there never been a rider you were wrorg about? 
but your position is a pretty easy one th maintain because believing a rider is doped is easy to justify and be proven right whereas believing a rider is clean is a much harder position to argue.
Not really. Believing a rider is clean is much easier. Especially if you follow most people's argumentation sequence which is to deny all logic and all proof. And if there's no proof, the rider is considered innocent.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
|
| |
|
|
| mb2612 |
Posted on 30-09-2008 17:30
|
Team Leader
Posts: 5759
Joined: 18-05-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
Aquarius wrote:
There's being dropped and being dropped. Being dropped after 30 km is absolutely not like being dropped by heavy dopeheads in the last mountain of a GT mountain stage.
yes and non doped riders progress from the first to the second.
and iso, the belief i'm talking about is the logical arguementative belief that you have perfected, as opposed to the "bury head in sand" style favoured by some fans.
and did you consider Ricco inocent before he was caught?
 [url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 30-09-2008 17:38
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
mb2612 wrote:
and did you consider Ricco inocent before he was caught?
As I said before, the reason I think my train of thought can't be all that wrong is that I've seen a rider get caught where I didn't think he was doped.
I think only very blindly optimistic people or very misinformed people could think Riccò was innocent
The guy was caught with drugs while he was a junior even 
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
|
| |
|
|
| chuckie |
Posted on 30-09-2008 17:46
|
Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 828
Joined: 22-09-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
Is it even possible to wrongly convicyt a rider of doping!?
Last year when Vino was caught people (not here) were saying that the ASO were setting up cycling,ther's even a video on youtube.
|
| |
|
|
| mb2612 |
Posted on 30-09-2008 17:46
|
Team Leader
Posts: 5759
Joined: 18-05-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
issoisso wrote:
mb2612 wrote:
and did you consider Ricco inocent before he was caught?
As I said before, the reason I think my train of thought can't be all that wrong is that I've seen a rider get caught where I didn't think he was doped.
I think only very blindly optimistic people or very misinformed people could think Riccò was innocent
The guy was caught with drugs while he was a junior even
Yes clearly but this is in contradiction with where you said:
And if there's no proof, the rider is considered innocent.
[url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
| |
|
|
| mattiasgt |
Posted on 30-09-2008 17:48
|
Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2471
Joined: 15-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
Isso, what do you feel about Stapleton? Is he good or bad?
(Previously) Manager of Koenigsegg
Koenigsegg: ( Media)
Livin' Loud |
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 30-09-2008 18:20
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
mb2612 wrote:
issoisso wrote:
mb2612 wrote:
and did you consider Ricco inocent before he was caught?
As I said before, the reason I think my train of thought can't be all that wrong is that I've seen a rider get caught where I didn't think he was doped.
I think only very blindly optimistic people or very misinformed people could think Riccò was innocent
The guy was caught with drugs while he was a junior even
Yes clearly but this is in contradiction with where you said:
And if there's no proof, the rider is considered innocent.
You and I have different definitions of "proof". He was very obviously guilty, in my eyes.
mattiasgt wrote:
Isso, what do you feel about Stapleton? Is he good or bad?
Bill, evil. Bob, jury's out. But I want to believe him.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
|
| |
|
|
| wackojackohighcliffe |
Posted on 30-09-2008 18:25
|
Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7681
Joined: 19-02-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
there's proof as evidence or proof as fact
|
| |
|
|
| mb2612 |
Posted on 30-09-2008 18:32
|
Team Leader
Posts: 5759
Joined: 18-05-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
By proof I mean that they are banned for cheating or have admitted it.
Your definition of proof seems to be- iso thinks they are cheating.
[url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
| |
|
|
| mattiasgt |
Posted on 30-09-2008 18:35
|
Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2471
Joined: 15-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
Does Columbia have Damsgaard testing system or another one?
(Previously) Manager of Koenigsegg
Koenigsegg: ( Media)
Livin' Loud |
| |
|
|
| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-12-2024 08:55
|
Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
|
|
| IP: None |
|
|
| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 30-09-2008 18:38
|
Team Manager
Posts: 33046
Joined: 08-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
mattiasgt wrote:
Does Columbia have Damsgaard testing system or another one?
They use a different system I think
|
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 30-09-2008 18:38
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
mb2612 wrote:
By proof I mean that they are banned for cheating or have admitted it.
Your definition of proof seems to be- iso thinks they are cheating.
please stop with the "iso" crap. It's every time so I can only assume it's intentinal. We're not certifying ISO9000 here 
Why Riccò? Simple:
- He was caught in juniors
- He had large troubles turning pro with CONI trying everything they could to stop him, several directors of the italian federation even commenting aloud they were "stopping a cheater"
- His increase in performances from 2006 to 2007 was simply too much to occur naturally. As I said with Kohl, a 40 watt increase is impossible naturally unless you were previously very ill. His increase was much more than 40 watts.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
|
| |
|
|
| wackojackohighcliffe |
Posted on 30-09-2008 18:39
|
Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7681
Joined: 19-02-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
that would be proof as evidence
|
| |
|
|
| mb2612 |
Posted on 30-09-2008 18:50
|
Team Leader
Posts: 5759
Joined: 18-05-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
issoisso wrote:
mb2612 wrote:
By proof I mean that they are banned for cheating or have admitted it.
Your definition of proof seems to be- iso thinks they are cheating.
please stop with the "iso" crap. It's every time so I can only assume it's intentinal. We're not certifying ISO9000 here
Why Riccò? Simple:
- He was caught in juniors
- He had large troubles turning pro with CONI trying everything they could to stop him, several directors of the italian federation even commenting aloud they were "stopping a cheater"
- His increase in performances from 2006 to 2007 was simply too much to occur naturally. As I said with Kohl, a 40 watt increase is impossible naturally unless you were previously very ill. His increase was much more than 40 watts.
sorry about the iso stuff i had it wrong.
I am not going to argue the semantics of every case with you because I am sure you are better informed than me, just that there are many riders you have accused of being guilty and hence I am sure that there are some you were wrong about.
I do have 2 issues with what you wrote however.
1st. If Ricco was already doping as a junior why did his performance jump so sharply.
2nd. In the Tour de France didn't you say thatKohl had followed a natural progression.
[url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 30-09-2008 19:13
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
mb2612 wrote:
sorry about the iso stuff i had it wrong.
Sure, no problem
mb2612 wrote:
I am not going to argue the semantics of every case with you because I am sure you are better informed than me, just that there are many riders you have accused of being guilty and hence I am sure that there are some you were wrong about.
Feel free to name a few.
mb2612 wrote:
I do have 2 issues with what you wrote however.
1st. If Ricco was already doping as a junior why did his performance jump so sharply.
There are barely any controls in junior. it's only natural that when turning pro he takes it easy before he knows what can and can't be done.
mb2612 wrote:
2nd. In the Tour de France didn't you say thatKohl had followed a natural progression.
If I said that I should be shot.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
|
| |
|
|
| wackojackohighcliffe |
Posted on 30-09-2008 19:16
|
Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7681
Joined: 19-02-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
i have a feeling you did. being quite a cynical person you make me look naive so i was shocked when you said that
|
| |
|
|
| mb2612 |
Posted on 30-09-2008 20:47
|
Team Leader
Posts: 5759
Joined: 18-05-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
isso,
the problem with naming people is that I don't know exactly who you think is doped and of the people who you think are doped and haven't been caught I won't be able to convince you that they are clean, even if they are. This means that if you assume everyone is doping then you can't be proven wrong. That said, did you predict Duenes Nevado.
Did Riccos performance drop off during 2006 then because he won a few pro races imediately which is more than either of the shleck brothers managed.
I don't want to look through the entire tour de France thread but I definately recall you saying that Kohl was naturally good.
[url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 30-09-2008 20:58
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
mb2612 wrote:
This means that if you assume everyone is doping then you can't be proven wrong.
But I never assumed any of that.
mb2612 wrote:
That said, did you predict Duenes Nevado.
We've had several discussions on Barloworld before. It's Corti's team. That's all the proof I need that doping is rampant there.
mb2612 wrote:
Did Riccos performance drop off during 2006 then because he won a few pro races imediately which is more than either of the shleck brothers managed.
He did well, but nothing compared to what he did in 2007. His performance jump was enormous.
mb2612 wrote:
I don't want to look through the entire tour de France thread but I definately recall you saying that Kohl was naturally good.
That's completely different to saying something like "natural progression". "Natural Progression" would be a stupid thing to say, but saying Kohl was naturally good would be downright idiotic on my part. i never said any of that.
If you "definitely recall" me saying that, please go back and find me that post, because I damn sure never said he did it naturally
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
|
| |
|
|
| mb2612 |
Posted on 30-09-2008 23:07
|
Team Leader
Posts: 5759
Joined: 18-05-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
ok, so Barloworld is doping, Astana is doping, CSC is doping. Not every one is though. I challenge you to name one current rider of some significance who you don't think is doping.
Almost every top athlete in the world has a breakthrough year where they emerge on the world stage, it is much more rare for someone who slowly emerges over time to reach the top.
It was natural progresion, not naturaly good, you were saying how he had got consistently better over the years, I can't remeber the exact words. If I have time later I might have a brief search
[url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
| |
|
