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Take Back The Tour
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| issoisso |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:43
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kadel wrote:
It is not the mass, correct. However, there is no denying that Islamofascism and Wahhabism are the dominant forces in modern Islam today and they have millions, perhaps hundreds of millions of sympathisers. I don't really care what majority of muslims think, because it is those with the ak47's, anthrax and dirty nuclear bombs that run the show. As long as the majority of muslims that loves freedom doesn't stand up and fend for themselves against the islamofascists, they are no better.
Ultimately, Islam has to change from within, the only thing we can do for the time being is fight back to defend our own society.
The fact is, more muslims have been tortured and killed by other muslims in history, than by any other nation or people. So it's not us they should be angry at, it's their own muslim oppressors.
What are you getting at? you've taken a bunch of turns, I still don't get what you're ultimately pointing to.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Addy291 |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:45
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issoisso wrote:
I still don't get what you're ultimately pointing to.
Makkah!
I have no idea what anybody's talking about but I've seen the word "muslim" a lot and I'm not sure what it has to do with any "tour", but anyhoo...
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| Waghlon |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:46
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I think he's trying to say: "Hey Europe. Your way doesnt work, lets try our way that involve xenophobia and stereotyping a religion"
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| issoisso |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:47
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iWaghlon wrote:
I think he's trying to say: "Hey Europe. Your way doesnt work, lets try our way that involve xenophobia and stereotyping a religion"
I would disagree with you strongly.....until Kadel claimed a muslim majority in Amsterdam would be a bad thing. Then I got scared.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| kadel |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:49
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Domestique
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Well the western world is full of people appeasing muslims and being apologetic over suicide bombings. I think nihilism definitely has reached a point where everything goes.
When I'm talking about mulitculturalism I pretty much see Europe as a whole because it shares most of its basic principles and values. Those values have been transferred to the US and build the fundament of Western society (US and Europe). The way to defend our society is by spreading our values and spreading democracy.
A muslim majority is dangerous because modern Islam is less advanced than medieval Islam. It's done a complete reverse of Christianity and is basicly what Christianity was in medieval ages. If they adhered to the moral and values of the society they live in, no problem, but many do not. Modern Islam's dominant force is barbaric.
I disagree that multiculturalism leads to a world where people shun each other. It is perfectly possible for two tolerant societies to live in symbiosis and tolerating each other. You don't need to enter the cult of multiculturalism. Some degree of identity is good.
While you and I disagree on a lot of issues issoisso, we respect each other and tolerate each others views and freedom of speech (yadda yadda freedom). That is a value not to be lost in transition while tolerating intolerance and hatred of our free democratic society.
I want to ask you, do reject an objective moral? Do you reject right and wrong? |
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| kadel |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:50
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Addy291 wrote:
issoisso wrote:
I still don't get what you're ultimately pointing to.
Makkah!
I have no idea what anybody's talking about but I've seen the word "muslim" a lot and I'm not sure what it has to do with any "tour", but anyhoo...
We are vastly offtopic here  all the way to India by now. |
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| Waghlon |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:51
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Frankly Kadel, you are sounding like youre trying to bash Islam. And you dont spread your values with an invasion.
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| kadel |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:55
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issoisso wrote:
iWaghlon wrote:
I think he's trying to say: "Hey Europe. Your way doesnt work, lets try our way that involve xenophobia and stereotyping a religion"
I would disagree with you strongly.....until Kadel claimed a muslim majority in Amsterdam would be a bad thing. Then I got scared.
I'm not stereotyping a religion, I'm pointing out the fact that the dominant force in modern Islam is not the one of peace, it is the one of hatred and fascism. A muslim majority in Amsterdam would be a problem because some of the leading European muslims also support the same views.
I don't want Eurabia, I want to keep our free western society. Not one that kills Theo Gogh because it doesn't tolerate freedom of speech.
I can assure you, it has nothing to do with black/white muslim/non-muslim. It's a fight against the last threatening force of fascism. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:56
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Tour de France Champion
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kadel wrote:
Well the western world is full of people appeasing muslims and being apologetic over suicide bombings. I think nihilism definitely has reached a point where everything goes.
You can rest on that one. No one's being apologetic over suicide bombings and no one's got a "everything goes" attitude. If you come over here, you'll see that 
kadel wrote:
When I'm talking about mulitculturalism I pretty much see Europe as a whole because it shares most of its basic principles and values. Those values have been transferred to the US and build the fundament of Western society (US and Europe). The way to defend our society is by spreading our values and spreading democracy.
A muslim majority is dangerous because modern Islam is less advanced than medieval Islam. It's done a complete reverse of Christianity and is basicly what Christianity was in medieval ages. If they adhered to the moral and values of the society they live in, no problem, but many do not. Modern Islam's dominant force is barbaric.
That is in no way most of Islam. it's a sample. a sample that is wrong. the majority of Islam is nowhere near siding with that.
An example: just because I've met my fair share of Israelis who truly, firmly believe they are the chosen people, better than all others on earth, that their government is right and true and completely incapable of doing wrong, etc. , does not mean they all think that way. far from it.
kadel wrote:
I disagree that multiculturalism leads to a world where people shun each other. It is perfectly possible for two tolerant societies to live in symbiosis and tolerating each other. You don't need to enter the cult of multiculturalism. Some degree of identity is good.
Those "two societies" each came from a melting together of several smaller ones. And no major problems arose. The same is valid for merging all current societies: you can keep your beliefs and individuality without grouping people into two distinct societies where things must necessarily be different. We can all form one society in which each person is completely different culturaly to the next.
kadel wrote:
While you and I disagree on a lot of issues issoisso, we respect each other and tolerate each others views and freedom of speech (yadda yadda freedom). That is a value not to be lost in transition while tolerating intolerance and hatred of our free democratic society.
But you're taking the perception of my values to the extreme. no is so tolerant as to accept anything. and if someone were to, no one else would agree or tolerate.
kadel wrote:
I want to ask you, do reject an objective moral? Do you reject right and wrong?
No, I don't. I just reject that everything can be categorised as 100% right or 100% wrong. Many things can, yet most things can't. there are always two or more sides to an issue, each with it's own relative merits.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Waghlon |
Posted on 11-06-2008 00:01
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Again, im not sure wheter i prefer Eurabia or Euramerica. But at least dont compare communism with fascism since they around nothing in common.
Now, im gonna go to sleep now, if this thread is filled up with Kadel claiming that its wrong to be tolerant and that Europe is a capital of nihilism, im closing this thread. Call me biased then if you wish.
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| kadel |
Posted on 11-06-2008 00:01
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iWaghlon wrote:
Frankly Kadel, you are sounding like youre trying to bash Islam. And you dont spread your values with an invasion.
You can certainly spread values by destroying dictatorships. In case you didn't know, the Iraq war is going pretty well after the surge. Violence is down nearly 90%. There is no military in Fallujah, it's being patrolled by Iraqi police.
The Anbar awakening has turned the most violent province in Iraq to relative peace. The Iraqi Army with the help of the US defeated the Mahhdi Army and Al Qaeda in Sadr City and Basra, Sadr fled to Iran with his followers. Mosul is also peaceful.
Al Qaeda is on the run and is only left in Ninewah and Amarah.
Prime Minister Maliki is proving a uniting figure in Iraq, uniting both shia and sunni now in the Iraqi government, army and police.
It also seemed to work in Japan didn't it? Japan was setting records in atrocities in WW2, look at them now. Nation building works, and is the only way to spread democracy. It's tough, but it works. |
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| Waghlon |
Posted on 11-06-2008 00:03
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I didnt even get to log off before i had to post again...
Controversial statement of the day: American patriotism is just as dangerous as a muslim with a bomb.
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| issoisso |
Posted on 11-06-2008 00:04
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kadel wrote:
You can certainly spread values by destroying dictatorships. In case you didn't know, the Iraq war is going pretty well after the surge. Violence is down nearly 90%. There is no military in Fallujah, it's being patrolled by Iraqi police.
The Anbar awakening has turned the most violent province in Iraq to relative peace. The Iraqi Army with the help of the US defeated the Mahhdi Army and Al Qaeda in Sadr City and Basra, Sadr fled to Iran with his followers. Mosul is also peaceful.
Al Qaeda is on the run and is only left in Ninewah and Amarah.
Prime Minister Maliki is proving a uniting figure in Iraq, uniting both shia and sunni now in the Iraqi government, army and police.
you have no idea what's really going on....stop watching CNN and start watching CNN international. I guarantee you'll find a world of difference.
The "Iraqi Army" you speak has retreated from most major hotspots and is being decimated.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Ashton89 |
Posted on 11-06-2008 00:06
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Some argue that you can't have full democracy, as we know it in the western world, in a islamic country.. Why?? Because if you wanna have full democracy in a country you can't mix up religion and politics .. These things should be devided..
But in Islam there are things you (the politicians) can't change due to the Koran .. This is the reason why you'll never be able to have a "western" democracy in an Islamic country..
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| kadel |
Posted on 11-06-2008 00:11
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Domestique
Posts: 480
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Well you got your history wrong there. The US did fund or support bin Laden. Osama was his own man even back then, he was the one that organized money from the arab world. Charlie Wilson was the US senator that got the mujaheedin weapons. After that bin Laden went to Sudan and built roads. The US never screwed him over, bin Laden uses US citizens and soldiers stationed in Saudi Arabia to help the oil industry and the so-called 'palestinian' cause as an excuse to attack America. This is not because anything they did to him other than being the exact opposite of the kind of society bin Laden wants. He want's an oppressive iron age sharia socicety.
Bin Laden attacked the US first in Tanzania and Kenya when he blew up their embassies, then there was USS Cole, and then finally, after Bill Clinton had been ignoring this threat for 8 years it ended in 911. Bin Laden got increasingly confident that the US would do nothing to stop him whatever he did, because they had gotten away with it before. They were cocky. They attacked the US because it is the brightest beacon of freedom and democracy in the world.
5% jihadists isn't a small number, that's roughly 50 million of them. I would say that there are 10% that are potential active jihadists and many more that support them in silence. A moderate muslim is just a rare occurance.
Edited by kadel on 11-06-2008 00:18
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| kadel |
Posted on 11-06-2008 00:15
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Domestique
Posts: 480
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issoisso wrote:
kadel wrote:
You can certainly spread values by destroying dictatorships. In case you didn't know, the Iraq war is going pretty well after the surge. Violence is down nearly 90%. There is no military in Fallujah, it's being patrolled by Iraqi police.
The Anbar awakening has turned the most violent province in Iraq to relative peace. The Iraqi Army with the help of the US defeated the Mahhdi Army and Al Qaeda in Sadr City and Basra, Sadr fled to Iran with his followers. Mosul is also peaceful.
Al Qaeda is on the run and is only left in Ninewah and Amarah.
Prime Minister Maliki is proving a uniting figure in Iraq, uniting both shia and sunni now in the Iraqi government, army and police.
you have no idea what's really going on....stop watching CNN and start watching CNN international. I guarantee you'll find a world of difference.
The "Iraqi Army" you speak has retreated from most major hotspots and is being decimated.
So why is the violence down 90% and the Iraqi army has control over all major cities. Sadr fled to Iran. This is nonsense by you, you're not updated. You should stop reading European news outlets because they have blacked out any Iraqi progress because they are heavily invested in a US defeat. In May, 21 American soldiers was killed, record low. Al Qaeda is beaten in Iraq and you've got to face the facts.
btw, I never watch CNN. I read, not watch. Even Senator Obama has had to admit that the surge is working, and he was one of it's toughest opponents. Senator Murtha has admitted it's working. Nancy Pelosi has admitted it after going to Iraq.
The facts are that the violence is down 90%. The Iraqi Army is growing stronger and recruiting thousands of sunnis AND shias. Maliki is a uniting figure and Iraq is growing into a democracy.
Why did the Mahhdi army have to flee in defeat to Iran with Moqtada? Why are there so few suicide attacks in Iraq now?
Get your facts right before you talk.
Edited by kadel on 11-06-2008 00:24
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| Ashton89 |
Posted on 11-06-2008 00:19
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kadel wrote:
5% jihadists isn't a small number, that's roughly 50 million of them. I would say that there are 10% that are potential active jihadists and many more that support them in silence. A moderate muslim is just a rare occurance.
It depends .. What do you exactly mean by "moderate muslim" ?
And I don't think that 10% are active jihadists .. And it's not only muslims that commits terror.. Everybody talks about the muslims and stuff like that and I understand why..
But there are European terrorists too.. What do you call ETA and IRA ?? Freedomfighters??  
Edited by Ashton89 on 11-06-2008 00:20
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| kadel |
Posted on 11-06-2008 00:21
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Potential jihadists.
I don't condone ETA or IRA, they are terrorists as well, however both the IRA and the ETA are nothing like their muslim brothers. |
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| kadel |
Posted on 11-06-2008 00:27
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Ashton89 wrote:
Some argue that you can't have full democracy, as we know it in the western world, in a islamic country.. Why?? Because if you wanna have full democracy in a country you can't mix up religion and politics .. These things should be devided..
But in Islam there are things you (the politicians) can't change due to the Koran .. This is the reason why you'll never be able to have a "western" democracy in an Islamic country..
I think that is a wrong assessment. People said this about Japan too, they were at least as bad as Islamofascists today. Look at what they have become today, a fully functional and working, free and open democracy. We already have a semidemocracy in the most progressive muslim state, Turkey, and they are improving. Iraq will soon join the ranks and will become a bastion democracy and freedom in the Middle-East and will hopefully influence the rest of the region.
Edited by kadel on 11-06-2008 00:29
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| Ashton89 |
Posted on 11-06-2008 00:28
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Domestique
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kadel wrote:
Potential jihadists.
I don't condone ETA or IRA, they are terrorists as well, however both the IRA and the ETA are nothing like their muslim brothers.
Well no but they do damage too.. They kill innocents too although it can't be compared to 9/11..
I really don't know how people can believe in Osama or Al-qaeda .. Because in the Koran there's nothing about holy-war or kill in Allahs name .. Nothing like that it's a peacefull religion.. It oppress women and stuff like that .. But nothing about killing.. I'll bet that Osama isn't a "real" muslim .. He doens't believe in shit .. But he says all these things to young kids and men just to get them to support him .. And these guys are stupid enough to believe him.. That's what I don't get..
How can you seriously believe in that shit .. |
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