|
After the Giro. Was it clean?
|
| Alesle |
Posted on 02-06-2008 22:19
|
Stagiare
Posts: 192
Joined: 30-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
chuckie wrote:
I've been told that doping has no effect on amateurs and only really affects those at the peak of their performance. Is there any evidence in this?
Not true. If I remember correct, that German guy issoisso was talking about improved his time up Alpe d'Huez by 4 minutes or something after a short time of EPO usage (I’m not 100% sure how much, I can’t find the article and it’s quite some time since I read it). |
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 02-06-2008 22:22
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
yeah, I'm pretty sure it was also 4 minutes |
| |
|
|
| Alesle |
Posted on 02-06-2008 22:25
|
Stagiare
Posts: 192
Joined: 30-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
issoisso wrote:
that's the biggest problem. guys like Legeay, Riis, Bruyneel, Breuking, Lefévère, etc. have to go.
the worst part are the fake anti-doping programmes that actually have a lot of people fooled (Astana, CSC, Rabobank...)
I agree, but Legeay? He retired long before EPO "caught" the peloton, and he hasn't had a bad reputation as a sport director (at least not that I'm aware of, unless you think Gan was "bad" in the mid/end 90s). |
| |
|
|
| Ad Bot |
Posted on 27-11-2024 20:04
|
Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
|
|
| IP: None |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 02-06-2008 22:29
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
look at the number of riders who rode for GAN and were later caught while riding for other teams. look at the number of guys nowadays who leave CA for teams that have "guilty" written all over them.
I'm not saying they're dirty now. but I'm not holding my breath. There's no doubt in my mind most on that team are clean, but I'm not vouching for everyone. |
| |
|
|
| jacknic |
Posted on 02-06-2008 22:31
|
Domestique
Posts: 613
Joined: 19-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
the worst part are the fake anti-doping programmes that actually have a lot of people fooled (Astana, CSC, Rabobank...)
I actually have some confidence in these programmes. I don't have too much knowledge about other teams but CSC, but their programme seems trustworthy because of their association with Rasmus Damsgaard.
He is a well renowned scientist who have worked with anti doping Denmark. He is also an outsider to the sport who has everything to lose if one of the riders is caught doping.
|
| |
|
|
| Alesle |
Posted on 02-06-2008 22:36
|
Stagiare
Posts: 192
Joined: 30-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
issoisso wrote:
look at the number of riders who rode for GAN and were later caught while riding for other teams. look at the number of guys nowadays who leave CA for teams that have "guilty" written all over them.
I'm not saying they're dirty now. but I'm not holding my breath. There's no doubt in my mind most on that team are clean, but I'm not vouching for everyone.
Fair points, though I don't think Legeay organised doping (or was a part of the doping culture), but that it was more of just the individual riders getting/using EPO etc. My point is I wouldn't put Legeay in the same group as Riis, Bruyneel, Breuking and Lefévère, whom all definetly was a part of the doping culture.
Edit: forgot the quote
Edited by Alesle on 02-06-2008 22:40
|
| |
|
|
| Aquarius |
Posted on 03-06-2008 08:48
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5220
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
Macquet wrote:
To ask was it clean is tough...I think the top guys were clean, but it is like baseball here in the states, a large percentage of the guys who used steroids in the "mitchell report" were borderline major league players, that needed that extra edge to make it...I think that in cycling you have a similar problem, the border line guys will take whatever edge they can get to make a pro team, the greats already have that "edge" in their natural talent. No idea what that Mitchell report is, but surely it can't be applied to cycling.
It's not like pro cyclists are untalented, they're not random people like me (and you ?).
If you take a look at my "watts in cycling" topic, you'll see the most powerful the riders, the more likely they are on dope. |
| |
|
|
| mb2612 |
Posted on 03-06-2008 09:19
|
Team Leader
Posts: 5759
Joined: 18-05-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
Aquarius wrote:
Macquet wrote:
To ask was it clean is tough...I think the top guys were clean, but it is like baseball here in the states, a large percentage of the guys who used steroids in the "mitchell report" were borderline major league players, that needed that extra edge to make it...I think that in cycling you have a similar problem, the border line guys will take whatever edge they can get to make a pro team, the greats already have that "edge" in their natural talent. No idea what that Mitchell report is, but surely it can't be applied to cycling.
It's not like pro cyclists are untalented, they're not random people like me (and you ?).
If you take a look at my "watts in cycling" topic, you'll see the most powerful the riders, the more likely they are on dope.
I think that it is still relevant though, I haven't seen the report but imagine you were on the verge of becoming a profesional cyclist and you just needed 1-2 good results to turn pro. You have probably dedicated your life to this goal. I can understand why someone would take the drugs for the extra bonus and a chanceat a profesional contract.
 [url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
| |
|
|
| jacknic |
Posted on 03-06-2008 11:32
|
Domestique
Posts: 613
Joined: 19-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
On a sort of related note: A danish mtb rider competing in the olympics have just been diagnosed with astma. He said (maybe jokingly?) in an interview, that he had to aim higher than the top 10 that was his goal prior to the diagnosis.
source: https://sporten.tv...04493.html (in danish) |
| |
|
|
| Aquarius |
Posted on 03-06-2008 13:02
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5220
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
mb2612 wrote:
Aquarius wrote:
Macquet wrote:
To ask was it clean is tough...I think the top guys were clean, but it is like baseball here in the states, a large percentage of the guys who used steroids in the "mitchell report" were borderline major league players, that needed that extra edge to make it...I think that in cycling you have a similar problem, the border line guys will take whatever edge they can get to make a pro team, the greats already have that "edge" in their natural talent. No idea what that Mitchell report is, but surely it can't be applied to cycling.
It's not like pro cyclists are untalented, they're not random people like me (and you ?).
If you take a look at my "watts in cycling" topic, you'll see the most powerful the riders, the more likely they are on dope.
I think that it is still relevant though, I haven't seen the report but imagine you were on the verge of becoming a profesional cyclist and you just needed 1-2 good results to turn pro. You have probably dedicated your life to this goal. I can understand why someone would take the drugs for the extra bonus and a chanceat a profesional contract. What the Mitchell report suggests is to seek dope and dopers among the weakest ones, the one that wouldn't be pros without dope.
I'm not saying that there are no weak pro cyclists who aren't on dope, not at all, what I'm saying is that where you're the more likely to find (let's rather say to pick at) a dopehead is among the strongest riders. |
| |
|
|
| Tenno |
Posted on 03-06-2008 13:42
|
Amateur
Posts: 6
Joined: 19-07-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
Well i read briefly through the thread and its a good debate with lots of good points and opinions.
A few posted that they totally believe that the CSF team is doped. And what do you base that on? That a 27 year old climbing talent, Sella, finally has his breakthrough? Or that the even younger, and probably more talented Domenico Pozzovivo sits with the best? Have any of you seen the Giro before? CSF was known as Panaria and has sent riders in breakaways like in this giro for at least one decade, the only difference is that they have succeeded this time. Or they had lots of bad luck too, with Sella's puncture, Baliani's fall, Laverde following Millar and so on...
And about Sella's breaks... The first day he was lot go because he was not a danger, and when he took off alone and rode away from the peleton, the peloton was led by Ochoa and Bertolini from the Serramenti team, everybody with a little bit knowledge of cycling knows that Sella is a much better climber than those guys. And in the lower slopes of the Pampeago it was Spezialetti who sat the pace, he is also a lot weaker than Sella in the climbs. When the favorites took off, they took 2 minutes in just a few kilometers. Sella was also favored by the work made by the Caisse team who had three riders up the road.
The next day Sella had Baliani doing the work for him, and also for a short period of time Perez Cuapio. He then rode the final climb alone, at the same pace as the guys behind. Its really strong, indeed, but given that Baliani did most of the work earlier on the stage its not really sensational.
On the last mountains stages and the TT to Corones he showed that he was the strongest together with Ricco. And his last stage win came because he was, again, not dangerous for too many in the top 5, so they let him go and the cooperation behind was not too good.
The team is a pro.cont team and part of the blood-passport program, it means they have a profile on them that can indicate drug use. However they did not sign the ethical chart from UCI (Not good), but its just a piece of paper and no one has ever had to pay back any wage yet. The positive test of Maxi Richeze from the team was not good, but he was caught with steroids and who is so stupid they take that on purpose? After the positive test team-manager Bruno Reverberi stated that he was really sorry for what happened, because they wanted to run a clean team. We did an interwiew with Pozzovivo on pcmnorge.com and he stated he was in favor of more blood test, GPS tracking and he would have quit if he didn't believe in a clean sport. Of course this is just words, but at least they have made a statement and the right statement.
Finally i will just add that Sella has been tested at least 3 times during this years giro and if all of these test are negative, we have to believe he is clean. We cant blame every one who breaks through for doping. |
| |
|
|
| mb2612 |
Posted on 03-06-2008 13:42
|
Team Leader
Posts: 5759
Joined: 18-05-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
Aquarius wrote:
mb2612 wrote:
Aquarius wrote:
Macquet wrote:
To ask was it clean is tough...I think the top guys were clean, but it is like baseball here in the states, a large percentage of the guys who used steroids in the "mitchell report" were borderline major league players, that needed that extra edge to make it...I think that in cycling you have a similar problem, the border line guys will take whatever edge they can get to make a pro team, the greats already have that "edge" in their natural talent. No idea what that Mitchell report is, but surely it can't be applied to cycling.
It's not like pro cyclists are untalented, they're not random people like me (and you ?).
If you take a look at my "watts in cycling" topic, you'll see the most powerful the riders, the more likely they are on dope.
I think that it is still relevant though, I haven't seen the report but imagine you were on the verge of becoming a profesional cyclist and you just needed 1-2 good results to turn pro. You have probably dedicated your life to this goal. I can understand why someone would take the drugs for the extra bonus and a chanceat a profesional contract. What the Mitchell report suggests is to seek dope and dopers among the weakest ones, the one that wouldn't be pros without dope.
I'm not saying that there are no weak pro cyclists who aren't on dope, not at all, what I'm saying is that where you're the more likely to find (let's rather say to pick at) a dopehead is among the strongest riders.
I think that both arguments are correct in that you are more likely as a percentage to find dopers who are at the pinacle of the sport because the margins are so small. However as a total number there will be more dopers in the lower ranks because the number of helpers is much greater than the number of leaders
[url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
| |
|
|
| kadel |
Posted on 03-06-2008 13:46
|
Domestique
Posts: 480
Joined: 09-08-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
First of all, doping in modern professional cycling is extremely expensive. Sustained EPO treatment over a season costs perhaps 50 - 80 000 EURO. Also you need the apparatus to even get it and apply it, so you need the right doctor.
This is not like baseball where they take steroids, steroids are easy to get and apply to yourself, EPO is not easy to obtain, not easy to apply and not easy to mask.
Baseballplayers don't need to mask because the MLB doesn't test, and it's relatively easy to obtain and apply yourself. If you are going to use EPO, you will first of all need to find a doctor with access to the drug and willing to help you dope (his silence will cost), you then need the doctor to drain small portions of your blood, then store it for the right occassion and apply EPO to the blood and get it injected into yourself again, all this in order to mask the doping. The EPO is then only visible in your blood for about a week and if you use other blood than your own you will get caught.
This is why you see the same doctors and trainers in doping cases over and over, Cecchini, Ferrari, Fuentes.
So you see, baseball and cycling is not comparable.
Riders that are just at the margin between pros and amateurs rarely have neither the right contacts, apparatus or finances to dope. Therefore doping is reserved for the stars.
Edited by kadel on 03-06-2008 13:59
|
| |
|
|
| Aquarius |
Posted on 03-06-2008 13:55
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5220
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
There's EPO and EPO though. It seems that you can now get it from China or whichever country, but the quality will be unsure, regarding the effects, side-effects or ability not to be found in controls.
50 to 80 000 euros seems a lot to me. Ullrich paid 24 000 euros to Fuentes for one season, apparently for EPO and blood doping mostly. It seems a more likely figure to me, for a big leader, than twice or three times that. |
| |
|
|
| kadel |
Posted on 03-06-2008 13:56
|
Domestique
Posts: 480
Joined: 09-08-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
Jan Ullrich rode 1 race per season.. I strongly doubt he used EPO throughout the whole season.
Edited by kadel on 03-06-2008 13:56
|
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 03-06-2008 14:00
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
it's not just the stars. amateur riders with only as much money as the next middle class person are caught doping all the time in italy.
it's not that expensive.
the very top quality treatments? those are only for the stars. but anyone can dope easily |
| |
|
|
| Aquarius |
Posted on 03-06-2008 14:02
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5220
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
He started riding in March, had a pro cyclist condition in May, and rode till late August most of times. That's about 4 months at a good level, and 6 months of riding.
I'm insisting on the months at a good level because that's when he had his blood extracted, before it was injected again during the TDF.
Although he had less racing days per season than most pro cyclists, he could probably afford a better and more expensive doping than them.
I doubt an average pro cyclist could afford paying more than that per season.
|
| |
|
|
| kadel |
Posted on 03-06-2008 14:05
|
Domestique
Posts: 480
Joined: 09-08-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
for the record his blood couldn't have been injected during the Tour de France, it must have been injected some weeks before to avoid a positive test. |
| |
|
|
| Crommy |
Posted on 03-06-2008 14:08
|
World Champion
Posts: 10018
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
Blood doping isn't traceable when it's your own blood 
|
| |
|
|
| kadel |
Posted on 03-06-2008 14:09
|
Domestique
Posts: 480
Joined: 09-08-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
the EPO in your blood is traceable within a week after injection. |
| |
|
