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Who is the doper?
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| Crommy |
Posted on 27-05-2008 09:51
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jacknic wrote:
The director of the WADA-accredited Swiss Laboratory for Analysis of Doping in Lausanne, Switzerland, has told Belgian newspaper Het Laatste Nieuws that he believed there was still widespread doping in the Tour de France this year. "47 out of 189 riders raced on blood transfusions or EPO," Martial Saugy alleged. "We have been able to show this from the samples taken at the health controls."
This to me is utterly useless information. Or even worse, it's harmful to the sport. If you cannot point your finger at specifik riders, shut your mouth. Statements like this cast suspicion on all riders and it let's people like my father and other ignorants to point out whenever I watch a race, "they are all on dope anyway." Some riders likely are and some riders aren't. If the clean riders are constantly accused of being dopers, what is stopping them from actually cheating then?
Seriously, I think they could quite easily name the riders who were on drugs. But they won't because then they'll get legal action taken against them. How is truth harmful to the sport? Seriously, how does that in anyway harm the sport. What's more harmful is the fact they can't name the riders, that they can't ban those on dope
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| soda |
Posted on 27-05-2008 18:24
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no reason to doubt atm its sella lol |
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| jacknic |
Posted on 27-05-2008 20:40
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Seriously, I think they could quite easily name the riders who were on drugs. But they won't because then they'll get legal action taken against them. How is truth harmful to the sport? Seriously, how does that in anyway harm the sport. What's more harmful is the fact they can't name the riders, that they can't ban those on dope
That was sort of my point. When they can't name the riders it must mean they don't have enough evidence. Then it is just plain stupid to go out and say that half the guys out there are on dope, but we can't prove it.
It leads to this:
no reason to doubt atm its sella lol
It might be a joke, but it's getting old fast! Sella had three good days in the giro and now he is on dope? Forget that he weighs about 60 kilos and is born to climb. It's the same thing over and over again. Someone performs well and some joker says he is on dope. "The Swiss lab said there were many dirty riders in the race, this guy won the stage, so he must be doping."
Bullcrap. Either they come up with some names or they keep your half stories to themselves. The rumors does not bring any of the cheaters down. They do, however, cast suspicion on all the pro cyclists and that is not fair to the guys who are actually clean.
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| Crommy |
Posted on 27-05-2008 21:07
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That was sort of my point. When they can't name the riders it must mean they don't have enough evidence. Then it is just plain stupid to go out and say that half the guys out there are on dope, but we can't prove it.
Yes, it is the evidence. They have plenty of evidence they did dope, but not recognised evidence. This doesn't mean the tests are wrong. Definitely not. The tests have to undergo a long trial period of about 5 years, and sometimes are just not accepted.
They would get sued if they did announce the riders. That's why they can't
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| issoisso |
Posted on 27-05-2008 21:16
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I'll try to put it as Anne Gripper put it, to the best of my recollection of her words:
The criteria for a positive test is as high as it is for a reason. Looking at the results, it's easy to realise who's doped and who's not. However, if those counted as a positive test, once in a rare while, an innocent rider would be "caught". This means two things:
1. Most get away with it so that a few aren't sentenced when innocent. Which, I'm sure everyone agrees with.
2. When someone tests positive, you can be damn sure all excuses are just that - excuses. The criteria is that high. Fanboys notwithstanding. |
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| soda |
Posted on 28-05-2008 08:22
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jacknic wrote:
no reason to doubt atm its sella lol
It might be a joke, but it's getting old fast! Sella had three good days in the giro and now he is on dope? Forget that he weighs about 60 kilos and is born to climb. It's the same thing over and over again. Someone performs well and some joker says he is on dope. "The Swiss lab said there were many dirty riders in the race, this guy won the stage, so he must be doping."
Bullcrap. Either they come up with some names or they keep your half stories to themselves. The rumors does not bring any of the cheaters down. They do, however, cast suspicion on all the pro cyclists and that is not fair to the guys who are actually clean.
Wasn't realy joking, the performance of Sella atm looks odd to me. I hope im wrong cuz i do like him. But well i have my doubts ... |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 28-05-2008 09:04
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If Sella is clean I may as well eat my hat.  |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 28-05-2008 09:51
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More likely, Sella is just like he was in previous years and the others aren't at the same level.
If he's doped or not? I'll worry about that when the Giro ends. right now I want to watch racing |
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| jacknic |
Posted on 28-05-2008 10:41
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Ok i'll try again. I am aware that the tests they have indicates that a group of riders are very likely doping. When they go out and announce that 40 riders are doping but that they can't name names out of fear of lawsuits. How are they helping the sport getting clean? All they do is make every single rider a suspect. Imagine being clean but everybody assumes that you are not.
Now about Sella. It is not uncommon that a strong mountain rider is allowed to go on mountain stages because the GC guys does not consider him as a threat to them. Most likely because the pure mountain riders are usually rubbish in the flat time trials (Sella lost 3.17 minutes in the first TT and will lose even more in the last).
Had he been a threat in the GC he would for damn sure not have won the two stages he did in the giro. |
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| Crommy |
Posted on 28-05-2008 10:50
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By naming that many riders as being doped, it makes the authorities sit up, take notice, and try and change the rules to make it easier for them to be caught. But it hasn't worked. But at least they tried
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| issoisso |
Posted on 28-05-2008 10:56
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jacknic wrote:
Ok i'll try again. I am aware that the tests they have indicates that a group of riders are very likely doping. When they go out and announce that 40 riders are doping but that they can't name names out of fear of lawsuits. How are they helping the sport getting clean? All they do is make every single rider a suspect. Imagine being clean but everybody assumes that you are not./quote]
They didn't "announce" anything. The guy was asked a question, so he answered it. Should he have lied and said "everything's fine and dandy"?
[quote]jacknic wrote:
Now about Sella. It is not uncommon that a strong mountain rider is allowed to go on mountain stages because the GC guys does not consider him as a threat to them. Most likely because the pure mountain riders are usually rubbish in the flat time trials (Sella lost 3.17 minutes in the first TT and will lose even more in the last).
Had he been a threat in the GC he would for damn sure not have won the two stages he did in the giro.
Nobody's questioning that.
however, being in a break for a whole stage two days in a row, and in both days actually winning time on the best riders (who are riding at their limits) on the final climb when you're already dead tired.....is a bit suspicious. |
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| soda |
Posted on 28-05-2008 12:54
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issoisso wrote:
jacknic wrote:
Ok i'll try again. I am aware that the tests they have indicates that a group of riders are very likely doping. When they go out and announce that 40 riders are doping but that they can't name names out of fear of lawsuits. How are they helping the sport getting clean? All they do is make every single rider a suspect. Imagine being clean but everybody assumes that you are not./quote]
They didn't "announce" anything. The guy was asked a question, so he answered it. Should he have lied and said "everything's fine and dandy"?
[quote]jacknic wrote:
Now about Sella. It is not uncommon that a strong mountain rider is allowed to go on mountain stages because the GC guys does not consider him as a threat to them. Most likely because the pure mountain riders are usually rubbish in the flat time trials (Sella lost 3.17 minutes in the first TT and will lose even more in the last).
Had he been a threat in the GC he would for damn sure not have won the two stages he did in the giro.
Nobody's questioning that.
however, being in a break for a whole stage two days in a row, and in both days actually winning time on the best riders (who are riding at their limits) on the final climb when you're already dead tired.....is a bit suspicious. + coming second the day after in a TT on the Kronplatz ... |
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| stuartmcstuart |
Posted on 28-05-2008 12:58
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Aquarius wrote:
If Sella is clean I may as well eat my hat.
And I'll eat my shoes. I just don't believe the 'form' he's found.  |
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| stuartmcstuart |
Posted on 28-05-2008 12:58
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Aquarius wrote:
If Sella is clean I may as well eat my hat.
And I'll eat my shoes. I just don't believe the 'form' he's found.
EDIT: where has the 'delete post' option gone?
Edited by stuartmcstuart on 28-05-2008 12:59
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 29-05-2008 13:07
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Igor Astarloa was sacked by Milram today, because of something abnormal in one of his blood samples. He doesn't accept it, so now the case is between lawyers' hands.
One less. |
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| stuartmcstuart |
Posted on 29-05-2008 13:13
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Will Milram soon be at a stage where they can't field a line up of 9 riders? 
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 29-05-2008 13:14
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Milram is being really consequent these days. That's a good thing. |
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| stuartmcstuart |
Posted on 29-05-2008 13:16
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I admire their principles, and at least they've got the balls to follow through with their threats. I wish every team was as definitive in their stance against doping. |
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| Crommy |
Posted on 29-05-2008 13:40
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Good job Milram - other teams need to follow
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| jacknic |
Posted on 29-05-2008 14:10
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Agreed! And it is especially good to see an Italian team with strict principles. Now we need the spanish ones to follow too.
On another note: I've sort of realised that my defence of Sella may have been a little too much. I read an article on tv2sport.dk comparing the CSF Group Navigare team to the insane Kelme team of the 90ies. I do see the resemblances, so I agree that Sellas performance is suspicius. Especially when you take the performance of his teammates into account.
That said I still think we should give the riders the benefit of the doubt as there are no hard evidence of doping.
Edited by jacknic on 29-05-2008 14:12
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