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TOTC 3: Pre Race Discussion Thread
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| The Rider |
Posted on 02-12-2013 13:06
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Welker --- Thanks and of course you can have the Skoda jersey. 
Right there are no more spaces open, now I will do the draft order and it will be uploaded today (If replacements come in for Cycleman123 and knockout they will take their places in the draft order).
So read post 1 and then send me your draft picks.  |
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| mvhoogdalem |
Posted on 02-12-2013 13:26
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Already sent my draft list yesterday. Do I need to re-send it? |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 02:04
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| The Rider |
Posted on 02-12-2013 13:28
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The draft order for round 1:
1. mvhoogdalem
2. The ManxMissile
3. 547984
4. Jesleyh
5. Shonak
6. welker2357
7. Ian Butler
8. sutty68
9. The Hobbit
10. tmr96
11. Atlantius
12. Brewers90
13. Marcodvw
14. Dippofix
15. jaxika
16. duxili
17. MrUFo87
18. Selwink
19. knockout
20. Ollfardh
21. Cycleman123
mvhoogdalem will start off the draft for rounds 1,3,5 and 7 and Cycleman123 will start off rounds 2,4,6 and 8.
For round 9 the order will be randomised again.
Best of luck everyone, you can now send me your squad lists via PM. (27 riders from 3 riders per pot: SEE POST 1)
knockout and Cycleman123 still need to submit their jersey choices. |
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| brewers90 |
Posted on 02-12-2013 14:19
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The middle again?? Damn
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| The Rider |
Posted on 02-12-2013 15:07
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brewers90 wrote:
The middle again?? Damn
I'm sure you will still manage to pick a great squad if you put your mind to it.
In the spoiler below are the positions of every draft pick:
Spoiler ROUND 1:
1. mvhoogdalem
2. The ManxMissile
3. 547984
4. Jesleyh
5. Shonak
6. welker2357
7. Ian Butler
8. sutty68
9. The Hobbit
10. tmr96
11. Atlantius
12. Brewers90
13. Marcodvw
14. Dippofix
15. jaxika
16. duxili
17. MrUFo87
18. Selwink
19. knockout
20. Ollfardh
21. Cycleman123
ROUND 2:
22. Cycleman123
23. Ollfardh
24. knockout
25. Selwink
26. MrUFo87
27. duxili
28. jaxika
29. Dippofix
30. Marcodvw
31. Brewers90
32. Atlantius
33. tmr96
34. The Hobbit
35. sutty68
36. Ian Butler
37. welker2357
38. Shonak
39. Jesleyh
40. 547984
41. The ManxMissile
42. mvhoogdalem
ROUND 3:
43. mvhoogdalem
44. The ManxMissile
45. 547984
46. Jesleyh
47. Shonak
48. welker2357
49. Ian Butler
50. sutty68
51. The Hobbit
52. tmr96
53. Atlantius
54. Brewers90
55. Marcodvw
56. Dippofix
57. jaxika
58. duxili
59. MrUFo87
60. Selwink
61. knockout
62. Ollfardh
63. Cycleman123
ROUND 4:
64. Cycleman123
65. Ollfardh
66. knockout
67. Selwink
68. MrUFo87
69. duxili
70. jaxika
71. Dippofix
72. Marcodvw
73. Brewers90
74. Atlantius
75. tmr96
76. The Hobbit
77. sutty68
78. Ian Butler
79. welker2357
80. Shonak
81. Jesleyh
82. 547984
83. The ManxMissile
84. mvhoogdalem
ROUND 5:
85. mvhoogdalem
86. The ManxMissile
87. 547984
88. Jesleyh
89. Shonak
90. welker2357
91. Ian Butler
92. sutty68
93. The Hobbit
94. tmr96
95. Atlantius
96. Brewers90
97. Marcodvw
98. Dippofix
99. jaxika
100. duxili
101. MrUFo87
102. Selwink
103. knockout
104. Ollfardh
105. Cycleman123
ROUND 6:
106. Cycleman123
107. Ollfardh
108. knockout
109. Selwink
110. MrUFo87
111. duxili
112. jaxika
113. Dippofix
114. Marcodvw
115. Brewers90
116. Atlantius
117. tmr96
118. The Hobbit
119. sutty68
120. Ian Butler
121. welker2357
122. Shonak
123. Jesleyh
124. 547984
125. The ManxMissile
126. mvhoogdalem
ROUND 7:
127. mvhoogdalem
128. The ManxMissile
129. 547984
130. Jesleyh
131. Shonak
132. welker2357
133. Ian Butler
134. sutty68
135. The Hobbit
136. tmr96
137. Atlantius
138. Brewers90
139. Marcodvw
140. Dippofix
141. jaxika
142. duxili
143. MrUFo87
144. Selwink
145. knockout
146. Ollfardh
147. Cycleman123
ROUND 8:
148. Cycleman123
149. Ollfardh
150. knockout
151. Selwink
152. MrUFo87
153. duxili
154. jaxika
155. Dippofix
156. Marcodvw
157. Brewers90
158. Atlantius
159. tmr96
160. The Hobbit
161. sutty68
162. Ian Butler
163. welker2357
164. Shonak
165. Jesleyh
166. 547984
167. The ManxMissile
168. mvhoogdalem
ROUND 9:
169: Jesleyh
170: tmr96
171: Shonak
172: Ollfardh
173: The ManxMissile
174: Marcodvw
175: MrUFo87
176: duxili
177: welker3257
178: jaxika
179: Atlantius
180: The Hobbit
181: Ian Butler
182: Cycleman123
183: mvhoogdalem
184: Selwink
185: Dippofix
186: sutty68
187: Brewers90
188: knockout
189: 547984
Edited by The Rider on 02-12-2013 18:29
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| Shonak |
Posted on 02-12-2013 15:27
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15615
Joined: 16-07-2013
PCM$: 350.00
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Uh, fifth. Probably the 4 ahead of me will still pick my riders and I end up with some random dude. 
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 02-12-2013 16:10
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15274
Joined: 21-07-2012
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A lot better. Still I'm afraid that the 3 guys above me pick the same riders...
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| The Rider |
Posted on 02-12-2013 17:58
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Posts: 4543
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Jesleyh wrote:
A lot better. Still I'm afraid that the 3 guys above me pick the same riders...
Unlikely Jesleyh as there is no Sanchez like rider to crush everyone this time around, plus even if you do miss out on your 3 picks you would be majorly unlucky to be randomly assigned the one weakest rider in a pot which is usually 5/6 AVG points below the rest. |
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| mvhoogdalem |
Posted on 02-12-2013 19:02
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Wouldn't it be better to hold a 2nd draft round if people miss out on riders in a pot. Would be much fairer than just getting a random rider. |
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| duxili |
Posted on 02-12-2013 19:04
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Domestique
Posts: 562
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mvhoogdalem wrote:
Wouldn't it be better to hold a 2nd draft round if people miss out on riders in a pot. Would be much fairer than just getting a random rider.
+1 that would be fair, loosing your turn is alreday a big handicap, at least let offer us a chance for a 2nd round not assigning a rider we don't want 
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| Cycleman123 |
Posted on 02-12-2013 19:16
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Last! Fek! I'll have the Alcyon jersey again.
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| The Rider |
Posted on 02-12-2013 19:22
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Posts: 4543
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mvhoogdalem wrote:
Wouldn't it be better to hold a 2nd draft round if people miss out on riders in a pot. Would be much fairer than just getting a random rider.
It would be fairer. But a hellova hastle.
I have already outlined the rules and they are not getting changed now.
Also, if we did it as you are suggesting, then there is nothing to stop EVERYONE from picking the same three riders in every round. In every pot in excess of 90% of the riders are well matched so no one is at a major disadvantage.
My systems supports the people who take the time to choose their third pick as a slightly weaker rider (Insurance pick) and possibly hinders the people who just pick the riders with the highest stat in a round for every pick. Which I think is the right way.
-- duxili - No one looses a turn every one gets the same amount of 'goes' as we are using a SERPENTINE system.
Edited by The Rider on 02-12-2013 19:24
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| The Rider |
Posted on 02-12-2013 19:25
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Posts: 4543
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Cycleman123 wrote:
Last! Fek! I'll have the Alcyon jersey again.
Thanks. |
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 02-12-2013 19:44
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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The Rider wrote:
mvhoogdalem wrote:
Wouldn't it be better to hold a 2nd draft round if people miss out on riders in a pot. Would be much fairer than just getting a random rider.
It would be fairer. But a hellova hastle.
I have already outlined the rules and they are not getting changed now.
Also, if we did it as you are suggesting, then there is nothing to stop EVERYONE from picking the same three riders in every round. In every pot in excess of 90% of the riders are well matched so no one is at a major disadvantage.
My systems supports the people who take the time to choose their third pick as a slightly weaker rider (Insurance pick) and possibly hinders the people who just pick the riders with the highest stat in a round for every pick. Which I think is the right way.
-- duxili - No one looses a turn every one gets the same amount of 'goes' as we are using a SERPENTINE system.
There are at least 10 very closely matched riders in each Pot, and 20 within decent range of each other. If you can't diversify your choices enough it's almost your own fault.
However there should be some sort of clear guideline to the replacement rider, because in each Pot there are a few absolute crappers no-one will ever pick. Being given one of those is extremely unfair when you only get to list 3 riders...
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| 547984 |
Posted on 02-12-2013 20:35
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Posts: 5008
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@The Rider: I'll try to get the picks in today, if not then tomorrow.
@Everyone else: If you keep complaining, TOTC 4 might as well be a pool of riders with all the same name, same stats, same nationality, same age, same fitness. 
baseballlover312, 06-03-14 : "Nuke Moscow...Don't worry Russia, we've got plenty of love to go around your cities"
Sarah Palin, 08-03-14 (CPAC, on Russian aggression) : "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a nuke is a good guy with a nuke"
Big thanks to jdog for making this AMAZING userbar! |
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| Shonak |
Posted on 02-12-2013 20:45
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15615
Joined: 16-07-2013
PCM$: 350.00
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547984 wrote:@Everyone else: If you keep complaining, TOTC 4 might as well be a pool of riders with all the same name, same stats, same nationality, same age, same fitness.
I'm sure someone would still find a way of scoring zero points then.
I find the draft system very good and no complaints from my side. A suggestion for next time maybe: How about four categories for the draft? Like this, but only splitted once more. 20 participants, 4 groups and each is two times atop and two times on the bottom. I can understand why someone in the middle could see a disadvantage with this current system.
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 02-12-2013 21:27
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
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Shonak wrote:
I find the draft system very good and no complaints from my side. A suggestion for next time maybe: How about four categories for the draft? Like this, but only splitted once more. 20 participants, 4 groups and each is two times atop and two times on the bottom. I can understand why someone in the middle could see a disadvantage with this current system.
Except they are wrong. It's not an opinion but mathematical fact. In a serpentine system everyone is equal regardless of position.
Of course odd number rounds means that in the end half the people are better off, but that is unavoidable, and randomized so is not too bad.
In your suggestion there are 4 groups of 5 people and each group has it's own separate draft. In each group each person is 1st twice and 5th twice, and what inbetween? Also what riders is each group picking from? Not picking holes, just trying to understand
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| Shonak |
Posted on 02-12-2013 21:59
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15615
Joined: 16-07-2013
PCM$: 350.00
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Mathematical fact, be it or not, this doesn't change the fact that someone in the middle feels like they never have a shot at the "best" riders or at least, the riders they want. Don't get me wrong, I think the riders and pots are balanced in a great way (I consider some riders from Pot 5 better for certain tasks than riders from Pot 1), but someone in the middle will hardly have a shot at their first rider, even the second rider might be out of reach sometimes. This can be avoided if you split the ranking itself.
I don't know where you`re getting that with this "own seperate draft" for every group, I didn't say that. By splitting people in 4 groups, each 5 participants, and chances exist for everybody to get at least once their first listed rider. I can't put that into a mathematical fact, but I don't think my feeling is mistaken here. Of course, one could also change the ranking in each group like you said, but I think that would get out of hand for this first look at this model. It might even go against the purpose of the original idea behind drafting for The Rider and it's not really that likely that the 4 guys ahead of you always choose all 3 riders you want. You can of course still do it and it'd be preferable because after all the first listed user in Group 1 will always be ahead of the 5th. So, yeah... and it'd be pretty manageable. For the guy inbetween: He'd always get at least one of his riders (if his group is first) so he is actually the guy with a bit of an advantage.
It`s actually pretty simple:
Draft 1-4
| Group 1 | Group 4 | Group 3 | Group 2 | | Group 2 | Group 3 | Group 4 | Group 1 | | Group 3 | Group 2 | Group 1 | Group 4 | | Group 4 | Group 1 | Group 2 | Group 3 |
Draft 5-8
| Group 2 | Group 3 | Group 4 | Group 1 | | | | | | Group 1 | Group 4 | Group 3 | Group 2 | | | | | | Group 4 | Group 1 | Group 2 | Group 3 | | | | | | Group 3 | Group 2 | Group 1 | Group 4 | |
Draft 9 is utterly randomized by The Rider.
EDIT: corrected some typos & the thought of mixing participants in the group itself, which is even better.
Edited by Shonak on 02-12-2013 22:12
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| The Rider |
Posted on 02-12-2013 22:09
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I guess I will look back on all these concepts down the line. But in the mean time.......
If your name in Post 2 has (***) at the end that means your draft lists have been accepted. We have already got quite a lot so at this stage it looks like we might have the draft on Wednesday evening, however, I won't start pushing people for draft lists for at least one day.
Edited by The Rider on 02-12-2013 22:10
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 02-12-2013 22:16
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
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But the whole idea behind a draft is that not everyone will get the "best" riders or even the riders they want. It forces people to think and diversify their choices and maximise their chances of getting the best available rider they can. If you are Number 21 then the best available rider will be different to Number 11 and Number 1. Of course Number 1 gets the "best" rider, but "best" is a relative in this case (unless it was TOTC2 where it was only ever Sanchez).
The whole point is to make you think about what your first rider should be. Do you risk putting the talented rider or play safe for the middling rider? The gains, to some, will justify putting down the best, knowing that if it doesn't work the consequences will be severe. "Best" is no longer purely about attributes, it is about security and maximizing the scoring potential of the team. The best stats wise (a Sanchez for example) is not the best overall because he is likely to be picked higher up. The best is now someone less good in stats but that is more attainable (a Vande Velde for example).
Also don't forget that the 1st Pick will equally be the 21st Pick just as often. Whilst they get access to the best stats, half the time they can only access those with low stats. They are forced to compromise more than the middle picks as a result, just half as often. Overall this leads to a balancing out, provided everyone is attempting to maximize their scoring opportunities and not their pure stats.
And onto the new system. It's, in essence, a serpentine system for the Groups. However only one person in each Group can be top pick when that Group is 1st. Each Group is only top pick twice, so it could only be two people per group. In the current system the chances of being 1st are 1/21st (21 people, 1 first pick).... Actually give me some time to do the maths because this new system is complicated to do....
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
