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Contador wins the mass sprint!
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| Macimate |
Posted on 04-08-2010 22:46
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Free Agent
Posts: 125
Joined: 15-07-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Well written, Sykkelninja. If it's okay with you I've copied your statement in a new thread at the Cyanide forum, once again trying to get them to listen. If you want me to delete it that's okay |
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| Sykkelninja |
Posted on 04-08-2010 23:11
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Amateur
Posts: 13
Joined: 04-08-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Tnx. No problem. |
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| MacC |
Posted on 04-08-2010 23:39
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Sprinter
Posts: 1594
Joined: 15-07-2008
PCM$: 700.00
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I just did an experiment where I chnaged the sprint orienattions stat to match the max potential sprint for each rider.
I then did a Tour de frrance (detailed simulation) I was BBox and tried not to interfere much.
Results: The top 5 in the points competition at the end were still GC contenders.
On flat stages sprinters did tend to win though.
Even a small hilly finish reduced the number of sprinters in the top 10 dramatically.
On the later flat stages more GC contenders apperaed in the top 10 making me think that the REC stat plays role in later sprints finishes
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| Nota |
Posted on 05-08-2010 10:33
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Under 23
Posts: 68
Joined: 27-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Sykkelninja wrote:
The problem seems multifaceted to me:
1. GC riders should realistically not be THAT far ahead in the peloton at that point in the race, nor should they risk injuries by taking part in a bunch sprint on flat stages. In real life they also don't have the necessary toughness to fight it out for position with the likes of Dean, Renshaw, Hushovd, Cav+++. This is for me the main flaw of the sprints as they stand today. There are quite a few other issues, but this is #1. The priorities of GC-riders in stage races needs adjustments. It should be all about the clock and safety on flat stages.
2. Sprinters should position themselves better. Not to mention the obvious lack of trains...or even a single lead-out for the top sprinters.
3. Short hills at the end of flat stages suck up too much energy for sprinters compared to real life. Yes, a hill at the end of a flat stage can lose a sprinter or two in real life...but IF that sprinter makes it over the hill, then he'll crush the GC-contenders every single time in real life. In PCM the sprinter will lose so much power that he falls short at the sprint.
4. Even on totally flat stages, GC-riders will still be fighting for the stage win and often manage to make quite a battle out of it. I would suggest that they for 2011 split the ACC ability in two; A) ACC for flat surface. B) ACC for hills/mountains. As of now, the ACC will launch a GC rider so far ahead in many bunch sprints that they often can keep pure sprinters away. I would also welcome a toughness rating. If you look at the bunch sprints of this year's tour they resemble cage fighting more than cycling... And if you're not extremely aggressive and used to this sort of fighting, you'll lose your position way before you can even see the finishing line as a more aggressive rider steals the wheel that you were clinging on to. It might seem drastic to add two new abilities to the game, but the sprinting aspect of PCM really needs to be reviewed. I love the game, but it's such a shame when you know that the game could be so much better with some (small) adjustments.
I agree with you in the first three points, but the fourth is a mistake. There is alredy a skill named SP. OK it's stands for the sprinting ability, but I think it should cover more than that. In my opinion the biggest speed of a cyclist should depend on FL(or on a hilly road on HIL) and PRL and SP not just on SP. SP should cover the sprinting thoughness, the will to take part in mass sprints etc.
So if Boonen has 83FL and 80PRL and 80SP it should mean he is faster than Farrar who has 76FL 79PRL but 82SP. BUT on the other hand Farrar should win more bunch finishes because he is sprinting better than Boonen.
I think there are alredy a lot of skills in this game and we don't need much more. I think the developers should make some adjustment in the meaning of the skills rather then making new skills every time something goes wrong.
In my opinion we need an attribute in the DB which holds for the target of the cyclist in the actual stage or race. The AI should make a tactic for every team in a race before the start and assign roles for every racer in the team. Some roles or programs:
a, just stay out of trouble
b, win the stage whatever it takes
c, defend the yellow jersey
d, make a sprinttrain (martin, rogers)
e, lead out the sprinter (dean)
f, attack early to win stage
g, attack early to help teammates
h, attack for mountain points (charteau)
i, attack for points (hushovd)
j, attack late to win stage (cancellara)
k, fight to make the time limit
l, try to recover, rest
...
Edited by Nota on 05-08-2010 10:36
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| Sykkelninja |
Posted on 05-08-2010 18:19
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Amateur
Posts: 13
Joined: 04-08-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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@Nota:
I'm afraid that we will have to agree to disagree.
As I understand the game in it's current state, the ACC ability is pure acceleration whilst SPR is the top speed. Please feel free to correct me if there are further skills gained by high attributes in these abilities. I don't really think that riders should be significantly better sprinters by having high FL and PRL stats. There are many riders that are great at keeping high speeds on the flat that are terrible sprinters...and I don't quite see how the prologue stat fits into this aspect of the game. To me it would be rather misleading and confusing if Boonen was faster than Farrar given the stats you mention above.
I can understand that some want to limit the amount of abilities, but I'm of the complete opposite opinion. Football Manager, which is widely regarded as the best sports manager series of all time, has 36 different abilities per player. Yes, it does make the game have a somewhat longer learning period, but the depth of the characteristics adds SO much to the longevity of the game, and it makes the game much less predictable. In FM the stats are divided into physical, mental and technical abilities. I would LOOOVE to see more of this in PCM. |
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| R_Funk |
Posted on 06-08-2010 18:44
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Stagiare
Posts: 186
Joined: 12-07-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Did anyone check wether this problem also exists on difficulty level 'extreme'? |
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| mat4404 |
Posted on 06-08-2010 21:40
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Under 23
Posts: 81
Joined: 05-04-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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I'm with Sykkelninja. It would be far more fun scouting for riders if more attributed were considered. I'd divide the hill and mountain stat for example into say 8 different categories based on length of climb and steepness of climb. e.g:
Length stats: 0-4km 4-9km 9-15km 15km+
Steepness stats: 0-4% 4-8% 8-12% 12%+
So as a an example i'll use Contador and Gilbert:
Contador Length: 0-4(79) 4-9 (83) 9-15 (84) 15+(84)
Contador Steepness: 0-4(78) 4-8 (82) 8-12 (83) 12+(84)
Gilbert Length: 0-4(81) 4-9 (73) 9-15 (69) 15+(65)
Gilbert Steepness: 0-4(80) 4-8 (83) 8-12 (74) 12+(65)
This depth would be good as it would allow riders preferences to be recorder. For example Gesink says he prefers the really long climbs the steeper the better.
Then these two stats would be entered into a formula to find out how could a rider could cope over a climb. This formula would obviously need to be worked out, but it could be something like the following;
First the game breaks down the climb into 1km sections and takes its average gradient. Then the riders ability to get up a climb of this steepness is multiplied with the riders ability to get up the position of this section (e.g. 7km into the climb).
So say Alpe D'Huez's last km section is after 13km and is 10% steep Contadors rating would be:
84+83/2 = 83.5
but Gilberts rating would be:
72+69/2 = 70.5
I'd love this as you'd have to pick your strongest place to attack on the climb in far more depth.
However, seeing the bugs in this game, this is but a dream. I' also like to see more mental stats added to the game such as aggression.
Edited by mat4404 on 06-08-2010 21:40
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 21-11-2024 19:20
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Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
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| NORSPEED |
Posted on 06-08-2010 22:30
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 251
Joined: 16-01-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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in my career Vinokurov wins the sprint sometimes..
Im on the edge... of glory
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| Timmeh |
Posted on 07-08-2010 00:11
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 267
Joined: 18-06-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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mat4404 wrote:
Gilbert Steepness: 0-4(80) 4-8 (83) 8-12 (74) 12+(65)
Are you kidding me?  |
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| E_Hagen |
Posted on 07-08-2010 07:04
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1118
Joined: 10-09-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Well, what I really believe, is that the SP skill is less important than FL, STA and REC. |
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 07-08-2010 08:06
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
Joined: 13-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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With the last patch it's the same??? |
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| Macimate |
Posted on 07-08-2010 08:32
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Free Agent
Posts: 125
Joined: 15-07-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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AiZaK wrote:
With the last patch it's the same???
Yes |
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| Roloracer |
Posted on 07-08-2010 12:29
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Amateur
Posts: 4
Joined: 02-08-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Just finished tour de France and Armstrong won the green jersey with 330 points. I came second with Cavendish with 303. It's not fair as I won 5 stages and was in top 5 on all other flat stage sprints. Armstrong finished 4th in final Paris stage  . Valverde won the green jersey in my previous tour. It isn't right. |
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| Insane |
Posted on 07-08-2010 12:36
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Amateur
Posts: 5
Joined: 19-06-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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in my career sami sanchez with his 82 acc kept winning mass sprints and finishing top 5 in all mountain stages hence getting points jersey in every stagerace he entered. So i contraced him  
Edited by Insane on 07-08-2010 12:37
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| superider2010 |
Posted on 07-08-2010 15:44
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 979
Joined: 17-06-2010
PCM$: 300.00
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sammy sanchez is too good,if he had 80 at tt and prolog,he were the perfect stage rider
i played tour du france and he terminate in 3 place at sprinters shirt with 210 points and 2 place at general
he win 2 flat stages
petachi(221) win the green shirt and hushovd(216) place 2
petachi win on champ-elissee to win the green shirt(35 points),sanchez were green shirt in the last race |
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| Deda |
Posted on 07-08-2010 18:02
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 901
Joined: 25-03-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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rank_f_orientation_sprint people.. 
If offense is the best defence, does it mean that defence is the worst defence?
If I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord will delete my browser history.
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| Macimate |
Posted on 07-08-2010 18:05
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Free Agent
Posts: 125
Joined: 15-07-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Deda wrote:
rank_f_orientation_sprint people..
Is a column that has absolutely no effect on this problem. |
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| roturn |
Posted on 07-08-2010 18:07
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Team Manager
Posts: 22246
Joined: 24-11-2007
PCM$: 3900.00
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What exactly did you change there. I put all GC rider on 63 and all sprinter between 77-83 (all 1-2 more than normal)
Then I started a detailed simulation of the Tour. 2nd stage was won by Contador, 3rd by Sanchez. Ciolek and Hagen twice Top5, Cavendish 11th and 13th. |
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| Deda |
Posted on 07-08-2010 18:07
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 901
Joined: 25-03-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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it actually worked for me.
or I'm hallucinating.. 
If offense is the best defence, does it mean that defence is the worst defence?
If I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord will delete my browser history.
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| Deda |
Posted on 07-08-2010 18:11
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 901
Joined: 25-03-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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roturn wrote:
What exactly did you change there. I put all GC rider on 63 and all sprinter between 77-83 (all 1-2 more than normal)
Then I started a detailed simulation of the Tour. 2nd stage was won by Contador, 3rd by Sanchez. Ciolek and Hagen twice Top5, Cavendish 11th and 13th.
I never use detailed simulation, only 3D.
And I didn't put just GC riders on 60-65, also the top puncheurs and cobbled/flat riders.
And one more thing, I didn't say that it absolutely fixes the issue, it just produces far less top10 finishes by GC and attacking riders.
If offense is the best defence, does it mean that defence is the worst defence?
If I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord will delete my browser history.
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