|
The Difficult Topics
|
| acac |
Posted on 14-11-2012 20:56
|
Domestique
Posts: 654
Joined: 20-09-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
Levi4life wrote:
On your last point, you said that Israel doesn't attack civilians, then in the next sentence explained why civilians get hurt by Israeli retaliation.
you missunderstood me.i never said israel attacked civilians,what i did said was that if an israeli plane sees a hamas militant getting a rocket ready for lunch,the 99% chance there are civilians next to him.that means the pilot has 1 second to choose:
1)let the rocket lunch and the militant run away(and that means israeli civilians will get hurt).
2)destroy the rocket and kill the militant,but put civilians under danger.
in my opinion hamas is responsibal for his actions and their results. |
| |
|
|
| acac |
Posted on 14-11-2012 21:01
|
Domestique
Posts: 654
Joined: 20-09-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
Aquarius wrote:
acac wrote:
first of all, the capital of israel is jerusalam and not tel aviv.
Nope, only Israel and its blindest supporters claim that. Tel Aviv is recognised internationally as Israel's capital, not Jerusalem.
acac wrote:
but who know, elections are coming up on both sides,maybe the next leaders will get along.
If Hamas is likely to lose, I'm not sure their replacement will be any better for the perspectives of peace.
In Israel, the result is expected to be relatively close to what it is now, so... 
well on your first point, its a argument of idiolgy, nothing much i can say.
and on the other side if hamas will lose then he will most likely be replaced with pattah(now rules the west bank, but not gaza). and in the israeli side, i dont know where you read that it should stay the same but for now there are 3 top names,all of them dont have the same view as bibi regerding the palastinians. |
| |
|
|
| Levi4life |
Posted on 14-11-2012 21:03
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4882
Joined: 16-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
acac wrote:
Levi4life wrote:
On your last point, you said that Israel doesn't attack civilians, then in the next sentence explained why civilians get hurt by Israeli retaliation.
you missunderstood me.i never said israel attacked civilians,what i did said was that if an israeli plane sees a hamas militant getting a rocket ready for lunch,the 99% chance there are civilians next to him.that means the pilot has 1 second to choose:
1)let the rocket lunch and the militant run away(and that means israeli civilians will get hurt).
2)destroy the rocket and kill the militant,but put civilians under danger.
in my opinion hamas is responsibal for his actions and their results.
Hamas can make the exact same argument. "An Israeli pilot was about to bomb civilians, so hamas militants shot rockets. If Israeli civilians were hurt, we should hold the Israeli pilot responsible."
|
| |
|
|
| jph27 |
Posted on 14-11-2012 21:04
|
Team Leader
Posts: 7339
Joined: 20-03-2010
PCM$: 900.00
|
Plus, Israel doesn't help itself by starting a fight with whichever Arab neighbour comes up on its wheel of fortune. Therefore there is less and less sympathy for them, and hence why I sympathise with the Palestineans. |
| |
|
|
| acac |
Posted on 14-11-2012 21:15
|
Domestique
Posts: 654
Joined: 20-09-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
@levi4life: its like the chicken and the egg.but if you look at it from the israeli point of view,those are all ground-ground rockets.if hamas shoots them to take down planes then they have about the same chance to shot the planes down with bullets from AK-47.
@jph27:israel did not just started the fight.for the past 2 weeks or so every day about 200 rockets were shot from gaza to israel and soliders standing on the israeli side of the border were attackd one by one while on patroling(so not shooting towrds gaza).
Edited by acac on 14-11-2012 21:16
|
| |
|
|
| Atlantius |
Posted on 14-11-2012 21:24
|
Team Leader
Posts: 6795
Joined: 21-07-2010
PCM$: 200.00
|
first of all i will talk about the maps.in the one on the far left(1946) that land was indeed mostly ocupied with Palestinians but they didnt have a state.the so called "palestine" never happend.
So because the land was controlled/occopied by a foreign power the native people forfeit their right to the land?
In regards of the details in relation to the wars I don't think you will find many situations where the two nations in war quite agree on the circumstances. Everyone has a tendency to make one self look better and the other part worse. I think most of rest of the world regard most of the wars mainly as aggression by Israel, but naturally your views are coloured by being from Israel.
and then we have the final map.israel as we know it today. the Palestinians want the rest of the west bank and east of jerusalam.
Many people would regard either picture two or three as "Israel". The larger part on the last picture is widely regarded a result of occupation. Half of Europe wasn't German in 1943 - it was occupied.
And the bit about "what we now know as israel" is a question of definition
do you mean there is an argument if a state called israel exists?if so, then talking to you about the conflict is a waste of our time.
I recognize both the Israeli and the Palestine state. But the term "what we now know as israel" could be discussed. I'm sure you will find a lot of different opinions about what is Israel and what is occupies Palestine...
now you said the 3rd goal is the definition of terrorism.by what i know terrorism is against civiliance,hamas i know as a terror-army.
The term terrorism is about actions you take with the purpose of creating fear. Like this attack is according to you (https://dictionary.reference.com/brows.../terrorism). States can commit acts of terror as well.
now you said that we came into a place where we are not wanted is worthless and offensive.do you say that becuse the arabs hate us we should leave?once again,if that is what you ment then talking to you about it is a waste of time.
I'm saying that you're were given a state in a place, where other people actually lived. The palestine people wanted to live there and they wanted to govern their own state - just like the other former colonies. The Palestine were given control of half their territory and fought for the right to remain in the entire area. A war of independence you might say. And Israel fought to stay in control of the land you were given. The problem is that the land never really was anyones to give (except the Palestinians living there).
and last but not least you said israel attacks civiliance.that is also not true.hamas is working from schools,playgrounds,streets and civil homes.attacking the hamas means that anyone around them gets hit.and you might say that in that case israel should not attack,but gusse what?hamas should work only from is bases and not anywhere near hospitals,schools and un buildings.
There you said it yourself: Israel attack targets in Palestine no regards what civil losses it leads to. The civil losses in Palestine are not less "civil" than those in Israel. It is war and war is ugly. Who was right is determined by who wins - they get to write the history book...
I think Israeli politicians have managed something extraordinary. They were given a nation in goodwill of the world after terrible crimes were committed against the Jews in WW2. In stead of being grateful they decided that it wasn't enough and started invading its new neighbours only a few years later. After 60 years the world no longer just look the other way ashamed of what happened in Nazi Germany. Now you have to start acting like you prefer peace over war.
Israel was a nation build to heal a wound after heinous acts of intolerance. And the state responded by not tolerating its neighbours. You cannot fight fire with fire without just creating an even bigger fire
|
| |
|
|
| Levi4life |
Posted on 14-11-2012 21:28
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4882
Joined: 16-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
acac wrote:
@levi4life: its like the chicken and the egg.but if you look at it from the israeli point of view,those are all ground-ground rockets.if hamas shoots them to take down planes then they have about the same chance to shot the planes down with bullets from AK-47.
Hamas are responding with the only weapons they have.
If Hamas had a superpower helping to fund and arm it's military with the latest and greatest weapons, would that be better? Would you prefer a more even fight? How many of the rockets that Hamas fires are stopped by Iron Dome? How many Israeli bombs fail to hit their target because Hamas has the technology to stop them?
|
| |
|
|
| acac |
Posted on 14-11-2012 21:42
|
Domestique
Posts: 654
Joined: 20-09-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
Levi4life wrote:
acac wrote:
@levi4life: its like the chicken and the egg.but if you look at it from the israeli point of view,those are all ground-ground rockets.if hamas shoots them to take down planes then they have about the same chance to shot the planes down with bullets from AK-47.
Hamas are responding with the only weapons they have.
If Hamas had a superpower helping to fund and arm it's military with the latest and greatest weapons, would that be better? Would you prefer a more even fight? How many of the rockets that Hamas fires are stopped by Iron Dome? How many Israeli bombs fail to hit their target because Hamas has the technology to stop them? . In fact, I am happy that you wrote that. First of all if the rockets they are shoting can't take down planes, then you can't say that they shot them to take down planes. On the other hand you still failed to give me a reason as to why the rockets get to civil targets. On your 2nd point, in a conflict all sides should put everything they have in order to win. Israel has iron dome=Israel uses iron dome.if Hamas will have a similer system, I am sure that they will use it. |
| |
|
|
| Levi4life |
Posted on 14-11-2012 21:56
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4882
Joined: 16-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
acac wrote:
Levi4life wrote:
acac wrote:
@levi4life: its like the chicken and the egg.but if you look at it from the israeli point of view,those are all ground-ground rockets.if hamas shoots them to take down planes then they have about the same chance to shot the planes down with bullets from AK-47.
Hamas are responding with the only weapons they have.
If Hamas had a superpower helping to fund and arm it's military with the latest and greatest weapons, would that be better? Would you prefer a more even fight? How many of the rockets that Hamas fires are stopped by Iron Dome? How many Israeli bombs fail to hit their target because Hamas has the technology to stop them? . In fact, I am happy that you wrote that. First of all if the rockets they are shoting can't take down planes, then you can't say that they shot them to take down planes. On the other hand you still failed to give me a reason as to why the rockets get to civil targets. On your 2nd point, in a conflict all sides should put everything they have in order to win. Israel has iron dome=Israel uses iron dome.if Hamas will have a similer system, I am sure that they will use it.
What you are saying is that since Hamas' strike capabilities are only a few steps removed from the stone age, they shouldn't fight for Palestinian independence at all. My understanding of Hamas' rocket systems (as you noted before) they are mostly home made, and therefore they are garbage. Deadly, but garbage nonetheless. And now you might be confusing the chicken and egg scenario. If Israel occupies the West Bank why shouldn't Hamas respond in kind? Then Israel responds again, then Hamas responds again, civilians on both sides die. Israel doesn't have the moral high ground simply because the IDF has jets.
By this logic, the American Revolution should never have happened, the French Revolution, the war for Irish Independence, OR the 1948 war between the newly formed Israel and the Arab states. These are situations in which the people who ended up winning were woefully outgunned, but had success anyways. Why should Hamas view itself as any different than American colonists, or French Revolutionaries, or the IRA, or the Haganah?
 |
| |
|
|
| Ad Bot |
Posted on 27-11-2024 01:27
|
Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
|
|
| IP: None |
|
|
| acac |
Posted on 14-11-2012 22:03
|
Domestique
Posts: 654
Joined: 20-09-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
Levi4life wrote:
acac wrote:
Levi4life wrote:
acac wrote:
@levi4life: its like the chicken and the egg.but if you look at it from the israeli point of view,those are all ground-ground rockets.if hamas shoots them to take down planes then they have about the same chance to shot the planes down with bullets from AK-47.
Hamas are responding with the only weapons they have.
If Hamas had a superpower helping to fund and arm it's military with the latest and greatest weapons, would that be better? Would you prefer a more even fight? How many of the rockets that Hamas fires are stopped by Iron Dome? How many Israeli bombs fail to hit their target because Hamas has the technology to stop them? . In fact, I am happy that you wrote that. First of all if the rockets they are shoting can't take down planes, then you can't say that they shot them to take down planes. On the other hand you still failed to give me a reason as to why the rockets get to civil targets. On your 2nd point, in a conflict all sides should put everything they have in order to win. Israel has iron dome=Israel uses iron dome.if Hamas will have a similer system, I am sure that they will use it.
What you are saying is that since Hamas' strike capabilities are only a few steps removed from the stone age, they shouldn't fight for Palestinian independence at all. My understanding of Hamas' rocket systems (as you noted before) they are mostly home made, and therefore they are garbage. Deadly, but garbage nonetheless. And now you might be confusing the chicken and egg scenario. If Israel occupies the West Bank why shouldn't Hamas respond in kind? Then Israel responds again, then Hamas responds again, civilians on both sides die. Israel doesn't have the moral high ground simply because the IDF has jets.
By this logic, the American Revolution should never have happened, the French Revolution, the war for Irish Independence, OR the 1948 war between the newly formed Israel and the Arab states. These are situations in which the people who ended up winning were woefully outgunned, but had success anyways. Why should Hamas view itself as any different than American colonists, or French Revolutionaries, or the IRA, or the Haganah?
I didn't say they shouldn't fight, but they should fight the IDF and not the citizens of Israel. I can't be any clearer. |
| |
|
|
| Levi4life |
Posted on 14-11-2012 22:14
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4882
Joined: 16-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
Then the IDF shouldn't bomb civilians in Gaza, and Israel shouldn't occupy the west bank... Palestinians regard the occupation of Palestinian territories as violence against civilians... And Israeli civilians are actively participating in this occupation. They can justify violence against civilians because Israeli civilians are complicit.
Edited by Levi4life on 14-11-2012 22:15
|
| |
|
|
| acac |
Posted on 15-11-2012 03:41
|
Domestique
Posts: 654
Joined: 20-09-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
Levi4life wrote:
Then the IDF shouldn't bomb civilians in Gaza, and Israel shouldn't occupy the west bank... Palestinians regard the occupation of Palestinian territories as violence against civilians... And Israeli civilians are actively participating in this occupation. They can justify violence against civilians because Israeli civilians are complicit.
Palestinians belive that the occupation is an act of violence so they want to attack civilians? Ok you know what, let me take a different angel. You said the Palestinians have the right to fight in order to get a country. Then doesn't Israel have a right to fight to defend itself? |
| |
|
|
| Levi4life |
Posted on 15-11-2012 04:59
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4882
Joined: 16-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
Israel is the occupying force, recognized by the international community as being in the wrong. Continued occupation of the west bank is not a defensive action.
|
| |
|
|
| Ian Butler |
Posted on 15-11-2012 09:37
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 21854
Joined: 01-05-2012
PCM$: 400.00
|
If I could say one thing to both forces (in fact, this goes for the entire world and everything doing things like this) it would have to be this:
"Act normal"
Damn, stop killing each other and bombing each other and driving drunk and killing kids and raping little boys in church and damn, just act normal!
At this point, I'd like to introduce a little poem by Jim Morrison, the most brilliant poem ever:
What have they done to the earth?
What have they done to our fair sister?
Ravaged and plundered and ripped her and bit her
Stuck her with knives in the side of the dawn
And tied her with fences and dragged her down |
| |
|
|
| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 15-11-2012 11:36
|
World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
|
And they all say: "We want the world and we want it.....NOW!"
Amen to Jimbo!
I am not reall getting deep into this discussion, because i had too many verbal fight on this issue, but i am rather on the side of Levi's opinions.
Biggest problem for me and what i see as the total nonsense and one of biggest mistakes of history was creation of Israel state after the 2ndWW. I think that it was the act of sorrow beacause of what terrible things happened to jewish people, rather than somebody using his head to think about what situation this will create for another hundreds of years.
|
| |
|
|
| acac |
Posted on 15-11-2012 13:58
|
Domestique
Posts: 654
Joined: 20-09-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
New report is that 3 Israeli civilians died from the rockets.
EDIT:rockets reached central israel
Edited by acac on 15-11-2012 15:01
|
| |
|
|
| Levi4life |
Posted on 15-11-2012 18:11
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4882
Joined: 16-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
I should clarify that I don't think it is right that Hamas attacks civilians. Only that it is foolish to expect Hamas, and the Palestinian people at large, to take continued settlement expansion on the chin. The pre-conditions for a transition to peace have not been met. Ending an occupation would be one of the biggest pre-conditions. Doing the same thing and expecting a different result, expecting Palestinians to turn the other cheek, is foolish.
|
| |
|
|
| acac |
Posted on 15-11-2012 19:00
|
Domestique
Posts: 654
Joined: 20-09-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
Levi4life wrote:
I should clarify that I don't think it is right that Hamas attacks civilians. Only that it is foolish to expect Hamas, and the Palestinian people at large, to take continued settlement expansion on the chin. The pre-conditions for a transition to peace have not been met. Ending an occupation would be one of the biggest pre-conditions. Doing the same thing and expecting a different result, expecting Palestinians to turn the other cheek, is foolish.
as i told you before,the israeli goverment and the israeli public just lost all trust with the palestinian leadrship after all the times we freezed the settlements and then came with stupid offers(i just do have a better word to write).for exampal, they once offered that israel will give its entire water supply...
and more reports:2 rockets got to tel aviv, but crashed into the ocean.that caused israel to get more air-strikes in gaza.also, the goverment has given the IDF a permit to order 30,000 reserve troops(plus the 9,000 that already got ordered yesterday and earlier today).i can tell you that i saw ALOT of soliders, tanks and APC's.by the looks of things there is going to be a ground attack. |
| |
|
|
| Levi4life |
Posted on 15-11-2012 22:44
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4882
Joined: 16-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
You aren't convincing me that you are committed to the peace process. The most recent negotiations broke down after Netanyahu refused (despite pressure from the US) to extend a 60 day moratorium on settlement building. Is it ridiculous to ask for settlement building activity to be stopped? Building settlements on Palestinian territory just shows the Palestinians that Israel doesn't intend to leave, ever. It doesn't build confidence in the seriousness of the actors when one side refuses to stop its Lebensraum campaign.
|
| |
|
|
| acac |
Posted on 16-11-2012 06:17
|
Domestique
Posts: 654
Joined: 20-09-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
But that is exactly what I said. He refused because he knew that they will come with some ridicules offer. And btw, Israel has already proven that we intend to make peace( Egypt and Jordan + very advanced peace talks with Syria until the rebels started). |
| |
|
