|
TdF'13 Stage 20 - Annecy to Annecy-Semnoz (July 20)
|
| Kimmage |
Posted on 20-07-2013 23:29
|
Under 23
Posts: 96
Joined: 06-07-2013
PCM$: 200.00
|
Ybodonk wrote:
Iso and Aquarius, i just read your posts on page 23 (i think).
You mention data from Wiggins and especially Armstrong bloodvalues - the B.P.
Would you be so kind to provide the links? I would love to read the analysis etc for this.
I don't have an analysis. But I do have the blood values.
Armstrong
Wiggins
I don't have better information about Wiggins, which is a shame.
Now. I am not a scientist. So I can't say these things with the utmost precision. But there a few things that are worrying.
If we look at Armstrongs vaules between July 2nd and July 25th 2009. We see that his hematocrit value spikes twice during the race. Which is not natural. Normally the hematocrit value will decrease following sustained physical effort. It is of course possible that his hematocrit value could increase if he was very dehydrated, but that would be very implausible considering how Lance rode that Tour. We see the same thing happening with his hemaglobin value. Those are very clear signs of blood infusions, as we know happened. Also notice how his values spiked on the 14th, the day following the first rest day. There may be other things you can say based on the other values, but I am not well versed enough in their meaning to say anything, maybe someone with better knowledge can jump in here.
About Wiggins values. We can see how on average his hemaglobin value decreased during the Tour, as they should. That means everything is just all fine and dandy right? Not really. Cause if we look at the 4 data points we'll notice that the third one is the highest. If I am not mistaken hemaglobin is supposed to decrease during a TDF. Which would make it very weird that Wiggins has his highest hemaglobin value on the 2nd rest day, even higher than when he started the race. His Off-score also spikes, and as the picture tells us, the off-score rises when hemaglobin is artificially high. This should be enough to make Wiggins values suspicious. Of course you should be careful to draw too many conclusions based on the limited amount of data we have here. It would be nice to have as much data as we have for Armstrong. |
| |
|
|
| fickman |
Posted on 21-07-2013 02:14
|
Sprinter
Posts: 1627
Joined: 25-07-2011
PCM$: 200.00
|
Jacdk wrote:
jph27 wrote:
Without the TTT and TT's, Froome would only have beaten Quintana by 19 seconds. If he was really suffering at the end of week 3 rather than just easing off then it puts it into a new perspective.
If you could put it that way, but you cant.
Froome and Sky didn't see Quintana as a threat, no one did before it happened and now, now Quintana has to contend with in any race he goes for, that he is a favorite and despite his 40year old appearance he is only 23 and what does such a huge pressure do to a young rider.
And he can also thank his star that Saxobank didn´t see him as a threat either, before it was to late and there couldn´t be done anything.
Because Quintana isent good on flat´s and medium mountains, his skill is right now the big mountains.
Im not trying to be offensive but its like u started watching cycling 20 days ago.
Before the Tour Sky told th press Quintana would be the most dangerous man on the Mountains. Why?
1. Froome saw him in action last Year on the Vuelta.
2. Quintana lives with Henao and Uran in Spain in the same house and the train sometimes together and they know what he is capable of.
And the only way Saxobank would not see Quintana as a threat is because they are blind. Quintana was the only one capable last year at La Vuelta to follow Contador, Purito and Valverde in the Mountains and even a couple of times showed he was stronger than Contador and Purito but had to babysitting Valverde.
Not to mention that he was in the most of top 10 of the users predictions on the Forum even Christian Prudhomme was talking all the time about him been for sure one of the riders to follow. |
| |
|
|
| fickman |
Posted on 21-07-2013 02:19
|
Sprinter
Posts: 1627
Joined: 25-07-2011
PCM$: 200.00
|
Forgot to ask something, I read next year Porte is going to be leader at Giro, Froome at Tour and Henao at Ardennes and Probably Vuelta, now my question is what is Wiggins going to do next Year??? |
| |
|
|
| Ad Bot |
Posted on 25-11-2024 10:24
|
Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
|
|
| IP: None |
|
|
| admirschleck |
Posted on 21-07-2013 02:21
|
Team Leader
Posts: 6690
Joined: 11-10-2010
PCM$: 200.00
|
fickman wrote:
Forgot to ask something, I read next year Porte is going to be leader at Giro, Froome at Tour and Henao at Ardennes and Probably Vuelta, now my question is what is Wiggins going to do next Year???
Not to ride for Sky, or going with 7days races such as P-N / TA ...
|
| |
|
|
| CountArach |
Posted on 21-07-2013 02:45
|
Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8290
Joined: 14-07-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
fickman wrote:
Forgot to ask something, I read next year Porte is going to be leader at Giro, Froome at Tour and Henao at Ardennes and Probably Vuelta, now my question is what is Wiggins going to do next Year???
Sulk.
|
| |
|
|
| Bikex |
Posted on 21-07-2013 02:53
|
Team Leader
Posts: 7257
Joined: 25-08-2012
PCM$: 600.00
|
dienblad wrote:
- Froome: Suspicious untill the Ventoux. After that gradually declining, showing he's a human. But still suspicious, only less.
- Quintana: 23-years-old and being the best in the last week of an incredible hard Tour.... Too much like a fairytale, I think this can't be real, probably an even more obvious doper than Froome.
Froome: Becoming a world beater at the age of 27, before that the most have never heard of him.
At the TDF 2011 would you have thought that a Kenian would be the strongest rider at the next TDF?
Quintana: Tour de l'Avenir winner, considered a huge talent since he was riding a bike.
So you really think Quintana is a more obvious Doper than Froome? 
Not saying that I think Quintana isn't doping though, just that it's not more obvious than Froome. I think his decline in performance was because he had the win already in his bag and didn't need to win anymore... |
| |
|
|
| Bikex |
Posted on 21-07-2013 02:58
|
Team Leader
Posts: 7257
Joined: 25-08-2012
PCM$: 600.00
|
TimoCycling wrote:
Mollema couldn't attack vs dopers like Porte Quintana and Froome, he was happy he could hang on. Just like Birdsong and his friends.
Sure, the reason your favourite rider couldn't hang on is that all the other riders are doping, but not your favourite, because he says he is clean.
I am sure without all those obvious dopers (Definition obvious doper: All riders better than Mollema) Mollema would be the tour champion...  |
| |
|
|
| XxMillad24Xx |
Posted on 21-07-2013 03:30
|
Stagiare
Posts: 235
Joined: 21-06-2012
PCM$: 200.00
|
Bikex wrote:
dienblad wrote:
- Froome: Suspicious untill the Ventoux. After that gradually declining, showing he's a human. But still suspicious, only less.
- Quintana: 23-years-old and being the best in the last week of an incredible hard Tour.... Too much like a fairytale, I think this can't be real, probably an even more obvious doper than Froome.
Froome: Becoming a world beater at the age of 27, before that the most have never heard of him.
At the TDF 2011 would you have thought that a Kenian would be the strongest rider at the next TDF?
Quintana: Tour de l'Avenir winner, considered a huge talent since he was riding a bike.
So you really think Quintana is a more obvious Doper than Froome?
Not saying that I think Quintana isn't doping though, just that it's not more obvious than Froome. I think his decline in performance was because he had the win already in his bag and didn't need to win anymore...
Remember, even Armstrong declined a little in the 3rd week. There are more and more comparisons coming involving Froomestrong and Armstrong.
"Cycling is now the the world's cleanest sport." - Chris Froome
|
| |
|
|
| vismitananda |
Posted on 21-07-2013 06:22
|
Domestique
Posts: 452
Joined: 23-02-2012
PCM$: 200.00
|
Well, I guess. The only word is that, The Colombians are back! We'll have to watch for Uran, Henao, Quintanna, and Betancourt in action. Esp. Grand Tours.
-Pain is temporary, Quitting lasts forever-
|
| |
|
|
| vismitananda |
Posted on 21-07-2013 06:25
|
Domestique
Posts: 452
Joined: 23-02-2012
PCM$: 200.00
|
Meanwhile after the race.
-Pain is temporary, Quitting lasts forever-
|
| |
|
|
| TimoCycling |
Posted on 21-07-2013 06:28
|
Sprinter
Posts: 1765
Joined: 27-08-2012
PCM$: 200.00
|
Bikex wrote:
TimoCycling wrote:
Mollema couldn't attack vs dopers like Porte Quintana and Froome, he was happy he could hang on. Just like Birdsong and his friends.
Sure, the reason your favourite rider couldn't hang on is that all the other riders are doping, but not your favourite, because he says he is clean.
I am sure without all those obvious dopers (Definition obvious doper: All riders better than Mollema) Mollema would be the tour champion...
No not at all, they are better than him without doping aswell . |
| |
|
|
| Ian Butler |
Posted on 21-07-2013 07:45
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 21854
Joined: 01-05-2012
PCM$: 400.00
|
vismitananda wrote:
Meanwhile after the race.
That's probably for the press. Threw that source of fat away as soon as the camera was put away  |
| |
|
|
| vismitananda |
Posted on 21-07-2013 08:45
|
Domestique
Posts: 452
Joined: 23-02-2012
PCM$: 200.00
|
Ian Butler wrote:
vismitananda wrote:
Meanwhile after the race.
That's probably for the press. Threw that source of fat away as soon as the camera was put away
lolz. Yet Froomedog ate the meat w/ bread, not like Conti who ate it raw.
-Pain is temporary, Quitting lasts forever-
|
| |
|
|
| Spilak23 |
Posted on 21-07-2013 09:11
|
Team Leader
Posts: 7357
Joined: 22-08-2011
PCM$: 200.00
|
fickman wrote:
Forgot to ask something, I read next year Porte is going to be leader at Giro, Froome at Tour and Henao at Ardennes and Probably Vuelta, now my question is what is Wiggins going to do next Year???
drink beer, smoke cigarettes and hang out with Liam Gallagher |
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 21-07-2013 09:59
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
Kimmage wrote:
If we look at Armstrongs vaules between July 2nd and July 25th 2009. We see that his hematocrit value spikes twice during the race. Which is not natural. Normally the hematocrit value will decrease following sustained physical effort. It is of course possible that his hematocrit value could increase if he was very dehydrated, but that would be very implausible considering how Lance rode that Tour. We see the same thing happening with his hemaglobin value. Those are very clear signs of blood infusions, as we know happened. Also notice how his values spiked on the 14th, the day following the first rest day. There may be other things you can say based on the other values, but I am not well versed enough in their meaning to say anything, maybe someone with better knowledge can jump in here.
Yep, well said.
Now, look at the rest. His percentage of reticulocytes (young red cells, the ones produced just in the last few days) and notice how it drops twice, the second time to less than half.
The body only does that in one situation: in response to a blood transfusion that's caused the circulatory system to be filled with way too much blood. A small drop in the 2nd week and then rise in the 3rd is expected. But Armstrong's just keeps dropping and it's huge
Compare his Haemoglobin in the Tour (green) to the Giro (red)
Yep, he rode the Giro clean of blood manipulation. Did not make the top 10.
Now look at his retics (short for reticulocytes). They drop to the floor during the Tour
Kimmage wrote:
About Wiggins values. We can see how on average his hemaglobin value decreased during the Tour, as they should. That means everything is just all fine and dandy right? Not really. Cause if we look at the 4 data points we'll notice that the third one is the highest. If I am not mistaken hemaglobin is supposed to decrease during a TDF. Which would make it very weird that Wiggins has his highest hemaglobin value on the 2nd rest day, even higher than when he started the race. His Off-score also spikes, and as the picture tells us, the off-score rises when hemaglobin is artificially high. This should be enough to make Wiggins values suspicious. Of course you should be careful to draw too many conclusions based on the limited amount of data we have here. It would be nice to have as much data as we have for Armstrong.
Precisely my dear Holmes 
TimoCycling wrote:
Bikex wrote:
TimoCycling wrote:
Mollema couldn't attack vs dopers like Porte Quintana and Froome, he was happy he could hang on. Just like Birdsong and his friends.
Sure, the reason your favourite rider couldn't hang on is that all the other riders are doping, but not your favourite, because he says he is clean.
I am sure without all those obvious dopers (Definition obvious doper: All riders better than Mollema) Mollema would be the tour champion...
No not at all, they are better than him without doping aswell .
Statistically speaking, if only 10% of riders are doped and the gain is 0.25w/kg (actually it's a lot higher, but let's dream awake that things are much better than they are), then on average 86% of GC candidates are doped.
Edited by issoisso on 21-07-2013 10:03
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
|
| |
|
|
| maximus |
Posted on 21-07-2013 20:12
|
Under 23
Posts: 67
Joined: 26-06-2012
PCM$: 200.00
|
Just missed 3 important mountain stages. Anyone got a link to full broadcasts? Would love to see Froome beaten on summits. |
| |
|
