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PCM.daily Stat Discussion
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| Fyr3 |
Posted on 06-04-2021 00:47
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Amateur
Posts: 5
Joined: 11-12-2020
PCM$: 200.00
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Hi Guys,
I am relatively new to the game and haven't had a great deal of time to experiment with editing stats, so quite simply I have a few questions if you have time to answer them:
Firstly, a very brief breakdown of the influential stats in each rider type (I am eternally confused by the flat type of rider, I give him relatively poor stats and he comes out very high rating.)
Secondly, is there a good way to go about balancing younger and older riders? I want younger riders to be able to challenge the older generations but in doing so, I seem to get careers with 5 GC men maxed out in mountains!!
Finally, how do you account for the weighting of different races? (for example a rider like Chaves will take a lot more out of his win at Catalunya than say Geraint Thomas out of his GC performance, because Chaves has struggled to show his former self in recent years and therefore I would rate his win a more impressive performance, but equally you then have to consider season goals and the fact that it would be risky for Chaves to come into a GT with really good form when in the last years he hasn't come away with much at all.)
Thanks! |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 09:07
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Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 06-04-2021 00:57
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
Joined: 13-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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In my opinion the stats are perfect, I like high stats |
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| valverde321 |
Posted on 06-04-2021 01:56
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World Champion
Posts: 12986
Joined: 20-05-2009
PCM$: 530.00
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marcoplv95 wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
marcoplv95 wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
marcoplv95 wrote:
The next stats update release will be focused in any stat or will be generic?
1) Pedersen and Kung with 81AVG might need some stats lowered? I don't see them in Top5 riders...
2) Andrea Bagioli has wrong picture.
Ps. I still see "Cya World Tour" (not UCI World Tour) after installing DB, did I miss copying any file?
Not sure by what you mean focused or generic but the stats will be done the same as always.
Pedersen and Kung can't really be fixed. For example Pedersen is at elite level in STA and REC but certainly not a top 5 in anything else BUT he's still a top rider without any weaknesses and deserves to be a late 70's early 80's rider and has no weaknesses. Whereas somebody like VDP who might have higher stats overall but loses a lot of average points due to his low mtn and rec stats. Dropping riders like Pedersen and Kung a few points here or there is not really going to help much because to really get an average down you need to reduce quite a bit in a stat and not the odd point here or there.
Thanks for the info about Bagioli
I mean if the upcoming update will revisit the values in COB based on latest races or in every stats.
I can guess the update on them (which are great riders) has been done after the WC, but how could they be rated so much better than Trentin? Even before the race, every odds would have been on Trentin if any between those three.
Anyways I'd suggest to lower every stats, there are too many cyclists with high stats, I don't know if anyone like me likes to play with custom teams in career, it's hard to go for a UWT and pick popular riders if they all cost that much.
Do you remember when there was 5 cyclists 80+ in MON? Now they are 21 (just as example, same can be said for the other stats)
I know it would require a lot of work, maybe if you agree it could be planned for next year DB.
All stats for WT riders and most PCT riders have been done now including Flanders in all races so far this season, so all stats have been updated for all races.
That WC with Trentin was sometime ago now and since then both Pedersen and Kung have got better whereas Trentin is at the same level but all must be about the same in averages.
There has been a general trend in this DB and some others that I know of to gradually widen the stats over the years. It's not really a question of whether there are 5 or 20 riders with 80 mtn or over but how the mtn stats work with the other 12 stats in game to highlight a rider's strengths and weaknesses. More than ever there are younger riders performing better than ever and even now I try to give them lower stats or high stats with low back-ups but in just a few races though they are improving so quickly irl. For example Fabbro not that long ago was an early 70's climber and now for this DB release will be 77 mtn with low back-ups due to good results and there are many other riders like him as well and as far as I can see he deserves 77 mtn.
Changing the matrix to higher or lower levels is a big job and really shouldn't be done unless results are coming out very incorrectly and then it's aquestion of whether it's a problem with the DB stats or the game AI.
It's easier to get better when you're an average rider, Trentin prime is better than both, overall, in my opinion, and nowadays they're kinda same level.
However I think you didn't get what's my point...you can spread gaps and weaknesses by lowering ALL stats.
For example: 83->81, 82->80 ... 76->74, 75->74 (and lower some other backups to balance), 74->73 ... 68->67.
And to highlight weaknesses and strenghts, spread the values (ex. a sprinter good in MTN will have 68 MTN instead of 71). It will result in even lower AVGs, that now sees too many good riders IRL with extremely high salary in-game
I'm only making examples, with these and a lot of work I guess (maybe for next year like I said), it could work and resolve the problem.
Just giving my opinion and triying to explain it better, if you disagree I can understand. Problem isn't with results but with career mode. Fabbro with 75MTN would perform like a 77MTN when also the other MTN values are lowered, but all salaries would be lowered. Last time I played PCM was 2018 with your DB and stats have become too high in my honest opinion  Salaries have become unreal, which is a problem you will never see in race results but...aren't you trying to improve Cyanide's DB (and always have successfully)?
By the way, is there still a google sheet file with latest values so that I can give my suggestions based on them?
If you want to lower the matrix yourself, you can open the cdb in Excel Editor and then just apply a formula that reduces every stat by "X" amount. I've done it myself in the past.
Theres also a Mass editing option in Lachi's Editor that makes lowering all stats quite easy too.
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| marcoplv95 |
Posted on 07-04-2021 10:43
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Stagiare
Posts: 210
Joined: 18-05-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Jonas Vingegaard height is wrong (162cm->175cm) |
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 07-04-2021 20:19
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
Joined: 13-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Hi guys, What do you think about Mauri Vansevenant??? Which stats??? |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 07-04-2021 21:00
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Fyr: If you mean giving the best kind of stats for a flat rider they can be categorized somewhat differently and they way we do it is as follows. Flat riders that can win big races like Kung, Kragh, Stuyven or Asgreen obviously they need a very high flat stat and a matching high res stat as well, so that they can sustain a big effort for a long period of time and they normally have a high sta stat as well. These riders may not necessarily be great in cobbles either, for example Kung does well on cobbles but is not a great cobble rider so a flat and cobble stat of 81/77 gets the right balance.
The other type of flat rider is a powerful domestique somebody like Declercq, Oss, Haller or Burghardt that tend to have a high flat but a more medium res stat as they are more likely to ride at the front of the peloton for a long period of time as part of the team without looking to go for victory themselves, so don't need a higher res. Haller though looked strong at Flanders though and a pity there is no Roubaix this week as he'd be more suited to that race
Then there are leadout men that need a high flat and with good sprint and acc to set up their sprinters and these are riders like Morkov, Richeze and Selig and even though they just ride super hard for a short period of time they need a good res to go with their strong flat and sprint/acc stats.
The three categories that I have put above for flat riders are just in general as many riders are a combo and can fit into different boxes etc but it's a good place to start.
When we stat younger riders they obviously get lower stats in general but often if they have good potential or show some early strong results tend to get a good stat in what they are good at but in return they tend to get lower back-ups. For example if a promising Columbian climber comes along he tends to get a high mtn stat with good acc but low back-ups but again there are so many different types of riders that come along.
As I just do the stats for the WT riders, I inherit the new riders arriving at WT teams and start to raise the stats for them as the season unfolds, as these are usually new riders for me to see as well and the trick is often to not raise them too quickly but have noticed that young riders at the moment are improving at an incredible rate.
I don't play career so can't comment on how this works there but having riders like Chaves say outperforming a better GT rider at a preparation race like Catalunya is not easy to remedy but "favourite races" does tend to help with this and I have noticed a greater tendency for a rider with certain races in his favourites list to do better in these races like have better pre-race form etc. We have also for the first time incorporated "rider type" and other related columns into the DB as well to see if they work or not in relation to this.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 07-04-2021 21:05
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 07-04-2021 21:02
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Marco: Thanks and he has already been changed
Aizak: he's 75/76 but I'd say he's better than this but better to wait for the following stages in Basque
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| alex199412 |
Posted on 12-04-2021 19:46
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Junior Rider
Posts: 39
Joined: 27-06-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Jonas Vingegaard made a good case for himself in this season for a solid bump in the mtn and especially in the hill stat, winning coppa bartali and 2nd in basque is mighty impressive.
Also maybe worth to wait for the ardennes classics but Valverde defo picked up some form again.
McNulty also should be put around 77 TT, had now 3 great TT performances with last years giro, pn and now in basuqe county.
My last point i want to make is about Roglic, last vuelta and also this season he has been arguebly the best rider on shorter climbs and even classics type finishes so 80 or even 81 hil with 70-72 sprint with high 70's acc could be worth for the nr1 rider in the world. This would justify having one mtn stat lower then Poga and still be a beas tin the GT
thats my two cents for any stats, as unfortunately we cannot see the current stats and my baseline to judge is the expansion pack from last year |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 12-04-2021 20:09
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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Haven't given a suggestion in a while so here's a shoutout to Alpecin-Fenix, they've really become a WT team at this point. Mathieu is good as he is, but both Merlier and Philipsen have become even better sprinters this year. It's mostly the domestiques I want to compliment, Vermeersch was a great help to Mathieu and got some good finishes along the way. De Bondt and Rickaert don't really have the results like Vermeersch but they've been a great help along the way. Sure, they're not Quick Step, but they were much better than what Jumbo Visma did.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 12-04-2021 20:55
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Alex: Vingegaard has been increased to 78/78 and we feel that he's better at the moment on shorter climbs, he's riding Ardennes so that will be a good time to see if he needs some more improvements. Valverde is always a hard one and he's 77/80 but could go back to 78/80 or maybe if he doesn't do so well at Ardennes 78/79 showing less difference between his mtn and hill stats, remember he always has had high back up stats as well and usually performs better than his main stats. McNulty is now 77/77 in TT. Roglic is already at the stats that you have suggested but I'd be careful going beyond 71 sprint as most people are not keen it seems on having a GT rider with too high sprint stats and at 71 he's the best GT sprinter anyway.
Olifardh: Alpecin have had improvements in general especially Vermeesch who now it seems is always in the leading groups in the cobbled classics. Yes Alpecin feels like WT and Jumbo as a team were just terrible in the cobble classics despite winning one, with Van Hooydonck who's had an increase in stats as the only rider really able to help Van Aert in these races,
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| rlemkin |
Posted on 13-04-2021 23:37
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Amateur
Posts: 1
Joined: 28-11-2020
PCM$: 200.00
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Cavendish.. |
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| alex199412 |
Posted on 14-04-2021 07:03
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Junior Rider
Posts: 39
Joined: 27-06-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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tbh i'd rather opt for a big increase in his support start, but he has mostly been riding against pro-conti competition, although beating phillipsen twice in a row is pretty impressive.
Maybe getting him sth. like 78 spr/80 acc would be indicative of his current performances ( with the increase in support stats) |
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 14-04-2021 08:45
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
Joined: 13-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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For Cav I see SPR 77 and ACC 79 and more END and RES |
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| marcoplv95 |
Posted on 14-04-2021 16:27
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Stagiare
Posts: 210
Joined: 18-05-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Why are you giving suggestions before even Tour of Turkey ends?
It's different if he wins 2 stages or 6 stages. |
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 14-04-2021 19:31
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
Joined: 13-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Because the best sprinter is Philipsen, and Jakobsen was injuried many time
Mareczko sometimes won 4 or 5 stages in China, if he win 7 stages Is he better than Ackermann, Bennet or Ewan???
EDIT: Guys what do you think about Pidcock sprint stats??? |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 14-04-2021 19:51
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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AiZaK wrote:
Because the best sprinter is Philipsen, and Jakobsen was injuried many time
Mareczko sometimes won 4 or 5 stages in China, if he win 7 stages Is he better than Ackermann, Bennet or Ewan???
EDIT: Guys what do you think about Pidcock sprint stats???
Philipsen did win Scheldeprijs, which is pretty much THE sprint classic. Fyi the 10 previous winners:
2011 Mark Cavendish
2012 Marcel Kittel
2013 Marcel Kittel
2014 Marcel Kittel
2015 Alexander Kristoff
2016 Marcel Kittel
2017 Marcel Kittel
2018 Fabio Jakobsen
2019 Fabio Jakobsen
2020 Caleb Ewan
Pidcock definitely isn't slow, but let's not blow this out of proportion either. He just still had very much left while Trentin was dead and van Aert blew up again.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 14-04-2021 21:03
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
Joined: 13-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Philipsen is a very good sprinter, but in my opinion must not be more than 79 in SPR
For Pidcock I would give him 72 (or maximum 73) in SPR |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 14-04-2021 21:36
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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I would make Cavendish 78/80 with lower back-ups now that he has found his mojo once again. When I say lower back-ups these will be higher than what he had before and similar to say sprinters like Bouhanni and Bauhaus for example. This of course is just the Tour of Turkey and he doesn't have that much competition but as he's probably the most successful sprinter in stage races in the history of the sport, increasing his sprint quickly again to 78/80 I don't see being a problem. His team has so many sprinters anyway with Bennett the clear number one with Cavendish and Ballerini at the moment next in line. Jakobsen who was getting better and better before his crash, we now have no idea how he will go in the future and Hodeg has not done too much over the last season in European races.
Pidcock is improving all the time and to see how good he really is, we'll know with the Ardennes but I'd say that he could be worth a 72/78 for sprinting but not any higher than this. I didn't see much of the race but saw Trentin exhausted himself by attacking way too early and Van Aert either ran out of steam or as I often think somewhat suspect with acc on hills. I'd go with poor acc on hills as 200km races are not that long for him.
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| marcoplv95 |
Posted on 14-04-2021 21:50
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Stagiare
Posts: 210
Joined: 18-05-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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AiZaK wrote:
Because the best sprinter is Philipsen, and Jakobsen was injuried many time
Mareczko sometimes won 4 or 5 stages in China, if he win 7 stages Is he better than Ackermann, Bennet or Ewan???
EDIT: Guys what do you think about Pidcock sprint stats???
If he won those stages in front of Ackermann, Bennet and Ewan for sure he was.
It's clueless to make changes to a sprinter who has still 4 stages to prove himself. Is it the same for you if Cavendish wins another 3 stages or if Philipsen does while Cavendish goes out of podium?
Cavendish will certainly deserve an upgrade, how much we shouldn't tell yet.
However PCM.daily has always taken in consideration that Quickstep has better leadout (even in PCM), and guess what? Cavendish is winning again right after joining Quickstep. |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 14-04-2021 21:53
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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Van Aert I'm starting to think its just pure exhaustion because of too much racing. He had a heavy 2020 season which included a rough TDF serving Roglic, pretty much all classics put together and a double silver medal at the WCs, then he had a Cyclocross season where he won the world cup, the NC and another silver medal at the WC. Then after a short break he's back to riding classics. I can kinda see him completely collapse in the Gold Race.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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