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Predictor-Lotto story
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 21:36
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| niconico |
Posted on 02-10-2007 14:19
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4102
Joined: 09-07-2007
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Matti Breschel danish champion and racing the TdF!! 
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| Guido Mukk |
Posted on 02-10-2007 21:04
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15830
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Presentation (PART 3)
101. M.Fothen
102. R.Förster
103. H.Haussler
104. B.Kohl
105. D.Kopp
106. F.Wegmann
107. P.Wrölich
108. M.Zberg
109. B.Zberg
Fothen has last year white jersey fighter..as thsi year team leaders..possible go leader Kohl. dont know much to think thet'r possibility..lets see. Sprinters Föster and Kopp..might have also chanches to collect sprint points.
111. S.Casar
112. S.Chavanel
113. R.Di Gregorio
114. P.Gilbert
115. F.Guesdon
116. S.Joly
117. B.McGee
118. C.Mengin
119. B.Vaugrenard
Dont know about Casar, but McGee has climbed very well at this season, But has we started with french teams now..
121. M.Carrara
122. J.Casper
123. B.Cooke
124. M.Eichler
125. S.Kolesnikov
126. G.Larsson
127. L.Pasamontes
128. M.Pronk
129. L.Ten Dam
This not so much climbing power has they was at Giro..no Rujano no Pena, this time they focus for sprint. Good decision and good move...so wach out green team when sprint starts..Casper, Cooke.
131. P.Caucchioli
132. F.Bellotti
133. L.Bodrogi
134. A.Botcharov
135. A.Charteau
136. A.Furlan
137. P.Halgand
138. T.Hushovd
139. S.Raisin
Caucchioli has team keader..he was just head of Cioni at the Giro..and he's second grand tour for year. This gonna be hard for him. Halgand is kind of June climbing sensation..he was just before TdF super form. Hushovd has been so far quite invisible..so has also have been McEwen who wants to green..so who knows.
141. M.Beltran
142. M.Backstedt
143. M.Fischer
144. E.Gasparotto
145. L.Paolini
146. F.Pellizotti
147. R.Petito
148. F.Pozzato
149. M.Quinziato
Beltran , Pelizotti for mountains. Pipo, Paolini and Gasparotto for sprint.
Edited by Guido Mukk on 02-10-2007 21:05
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| Guido Mukk |
Posted on 02-10-2007 21:20
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15830
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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![www.sponsorshop.fr/images/cyclisme/cyclisme%20sponsor/cofidis-logo.bmp[/img]<br />
<i><strong>161. I.Parra<br />
162. B.Fernández B.<br />
163. F.Hoj<br />
164. M.Monfort<br />
165. N.Nuyens<br />
166. S.Scheirlinckx<br />
167. C.Sutton<br />
168. B.Wiggins<br />
169. S.Zampieri</strong></i><br />
<br />
<br />
[img]https://www.sponsorshop.fr/images/cyclisme/cyclisme%20sponsor/ag2r-logo.bmp[/img]<br />
<i><strong>171. C.Dessel<br />
172. S.Dumoulin<br />
173. M.Elmiger<br />
174. J.Gadret<br />
175. S.Gerrans<br />
176. S.Goubert<br />
177. Y.Krivtsov<br />
178. L.Mondory<br />
179. J.Nazon</strong></i><br />
<br />
No <i><strong>Moreau</strong></i>..why?<br />
<br />
<br />
[img]https://www.garrastatxu.com/img/logo_agritubel.gif](https://www.sponsorshop.fr/images/cyclisme/cyclisme%20sponsor/cofidis-logo.bmp[/img]<br />
<i><strong>161. I.Parra<br />
162. B.Fernández B.<br />
163. F.Hoj<br />
164. M.Monfort<br />
165. N.Nuyens<br />
166. S.Scheirlinckx<br />
167. C.Sutton<br />
168. B.Wiggins<br />
169. S.Zampieri</strong></i><br />
<br />
<br />
[img]https://www.sponsorshop.fr/images/cyclisme/cyclisme%20sponsor/ag2r-logo.bmp[/img]<br />
<i><strong>171. C.Dessel<br />
172. S.Dumoulin<br />
173. M.Elmiger<br />
174. J.Gadret<br />
175. S.Gerrans<br />
176. S.Goubert<br />
177. Y.Krivtsov<br />
178. L.Mondory<br />
179. J.Nazon</strong></i><br />
<br />
No <i><strong>Moreau</strong></i>..why<br />
<br />
<br />
[img]https://www.garrastatxu.com/img/logo_agritubel.gif)
181. A.MartÃnez T.
182. E.Berges
183. M.Dueñas Nevado
184. J.Mercado
185. S.Plouhinec
186. D.Robin
187. B.Salmon
188. B.Sinner
189. N.Vogondy
191. T.Voeckler
192. L.Brochard
193. A.Clerc
194. A.Flickinger
195. A.Geslin
196. Y.Le Boulanger
197. L.Lefèvre
198. F.Renier
199. D.Rous
201. E.Sella
202. M.Aldape Chavez
203. T.Dall'antonia
204. L.Laverde J.
205. L.Mazzanti
206. M.Priamo
207. M.Rubiano Chavez
208. F.Savini
209. F.Tomei
211. A.Proni
212. C.Barredo L.
213. T.Boonen
214. S.De Jongh
215. G.Steegmans
216. K.Van Impe
217. P.Van Petegem
218. C.Vasseur
219. W.Weylandt
Tom..how you doing?
Edited by Guido Mukk on 02-10-2007 21:21
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| Levi4life |
Posted on 03-10-2007 00:20
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4882
Joined: 16-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Go Saul! and Tommy D!
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| stemple |
Posted on 03-10-2007 00:45
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1226
Joined: 03-04-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Can't wait Guido. Good Luck with race.
Manager of RABOBANK - Dutch Power
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| Podium place |
Posted on 03-10-2007 10:16
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Stagiare
Posts: 194
Joined: 11-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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go hushovd! |
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| maynard |
Posted on 03-10-2007 13:36
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Amateur
Posts: 22
Joined: 13-09-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Good luck with the tour. Cadel seems in excellent form!
BTW i really love your graphics, what kind of monster pc do you run the game?
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| Guido Mukk |
Posted on 03-10-2007 14:44
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15830
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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maynard wrote:
Good luck with the tour. Cadel seems in excellent form!
BTW i really love your graphics, what kind of monster pc do you run the game?
This is my new monster laptop ..
Hard working period having now...trying to post some stages as soon has possible.
Edited by Guido Mukk on 03-10-2007 14:45
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| Levi4life |
Posted on 03-10-2007 18:21
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4882
Joined: 16-03-2007
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10,000 Views Guido. Good story. Keep it up.
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| Guido Mukk |
Posted on 03-10-2007 19:36
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15830
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Stage 1 (prologue)
Londres - Londres
For me prologue dont give us winner..but give us good hint who is and what condition..here is some favorites and also good surprise..again
I cant stop admire..van der Broeck lately results..he wins Belgium TT champ, is fantastic helper for Evans at Suisse tour. That has been fool if I had prefer Hoste to TdF. Today van der Broeck give us best time..when he arrives..and belived or not first man who ever can beat that is Klöden..finaly he's result (4th +4sec.)
Rogers..good to see him racing after injury news just before TdF (7th. +11)
Menchov (24. +22sec.)
Pereiro (14. +15sec)
Sastre..he seems to be ok..after hiding few months (9th. +14sec.)
Leipheimer (5. +5sec.)
Andy (18. +16sec.)
Kasechkin (13. +15sec.)
Klöden comes and best time..just Evans to wait.
Here he comes..and clock shows exactly same time with Klöden..but referees finds 1 sec. between them. Evans like that he do not want yellow after first stage.
Results:
1 Andreas Klöden ASTANA 10'16
2 Cadel Evans PREDICTOR - LOTTO + 1 Player
3 Bobby Julich TEAM CSC + 4
4 Jurgen Van den Broeck PREDICTOR - LOTTO s.t. Player
5 Levi Leipheimer DISCOVERY CHANNEL + 5
6 Luis Leon Sanchez CAISSE D'EPARGNE + 10
7 Michael Rogers T-MOBILE TEAM + 11
8 Alejandro Valverde CAISSE D'EPARGNE + 13
9 Carlos Sastre TEAM CSC + 14
10 Tom Danielson DISCOVERY CHANNEL + 15
11 Markus Fothen GEROLSTEINER s.t.
12 Janez Brajkovic DISCOVERY CHANNEL s.t.
13 Andrey Kashechkin ASTANA s.t.
14 Oscar Pereiro CAISSE D'EPARGNE s.t.
15 Haimar Zubeldia EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI + 16
16 Linus Gerdemann T-MOBILE TEAM s.t.
17 Manuel Quinziato LIQUIGAS s.t.
18 Andy Schleck TEAM CSC + 17
19 Alberto Contador DISCOVERY CHANNEL + 18
20 Bradley Wiggins COFIDIS + 20
21 Yaroslav Popovych DISCOVERY CHANNEL s.t.
22 Laszlo Bodrogi CREDIT AGRICOLE s.t.
23 Piotr Mazur SAUNIER DUVAL - PRODIR + 21
24 Denis Menchov RABOBANK + 22
25 Stijn Devolder DISCOVERY CHANNEL + 23
26 Sebastien Joly FRANCAISE DES JEUX + 24
27 Alberto MartiÂnez T. AGRITUBEL + 25
28 Chris Horner PREDICTOR - LOTTO s.t. Player
29 Gustav Larsson UNIBET.COM s.t.
30 Christian Vandevelde TEAM CSC s.t.
31 Yuriy Krivtsov AG2R PREVOYANCE s.t.
32 Marco Velo TEAM MILRAM + 26
33 Mikel Astarloza EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI s.t.
34 Benoit Vaugrenard FRANCAISE DES JEUX s.t.
35 George Hincapie DISCOVERY CHANNEL + 28
36 Sandy Casar FRANCAISE DES JEUX s.t.
37 Benoit Joachim ASTANA + 31
38 Markus Eichler UNIBET.COM s.t.
39 Magnus Backstedt LIQUIGAS s.t.
40 Tom Boonen QUICKSTEP - INNERGETIC s.t.
41 Vladimir Karpets CAISSE D'EPARGNE s.t.
42 Francisco Perez Sanchez CAISSE D'EPARGNE + 32
43 Matti Breschel TEAM CSC s.t.
44 Kurt-Asle Arvesen TEAM CSC s.t.
45 Matthe Pronk UNIBET.COM s.t.
46 Florent Brard CAISSE D'EPARGNE s.t.
47 Thor Hushovd CREDIT AGRICOLE s.t.
48 Didier Rous BOUYGUES TELECOM s.t.
49 Xavier Zandio CAISSE D'EPARGNE s.t.
50 Nick Nuyens COFIDIS + 33
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| dave92 |
Posted on 03-10-2007 19:57
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 2946
Joined: 21-04-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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good result, good luk
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| niconico |
Posted on 03-10-2007 20:26
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4102
Joined: 09-07-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Unbelievable that Sastre could pull off a time like that considering he hasn't really been racing.
Good luck with Evans. I'm sure you'll beat em all
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| issoisso |
Posted on 03-10-2007 21:54
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Julich and Vandenbroeck 
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Podium place |
Posted on 03-10-2007 22:04
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Stagiare
Posts: 194
Joined: 11-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Yeah! GO Evans he`ll beat em all...... |
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| maynard |
Posted on 04-10-2007 12:37
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Amateur
Posts: 22
Joined: 13-09-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Guido Mukk wrote:
maynard wrote:
Good luck with the tour. Cadel seems in excellent form!
BTW i really love your graphics, what kind of monster pc do you run the game?
This is my new monster laptop ..
Hard working period having now...trying to post some stages as soon has possible.
Makes me even more curious, my new laptop olny runs good on medium/high graphic detail, not on very high, despite 2GB memory, nvidia videocard etc |
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| maynard |
Posted on 04-10-2007 12:38
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Amateur
Posts: 22
Joined: 13-09-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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dave92 wrote:
good result, good luk
Indeed, vry nice result! |
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| Podium place |
Posted on 04-10-2007 13:10
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Stagiare
Posts: 194
Joined: 11-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Satstre will have a very good tour i think......a 9th place for sastre in tt is a very good sign |
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| Guido Mukk |
Posted on 04-10-2007 14:07
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15830
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Stage 2
Londres - Canterbury
Special first stage for sprinters...McEwen should wach out fresh belgium and spain champ's Boonen and Freire...and also T-mobile and Unibet sprint power
Nice and colorful Predictor -Lotto riders..Evans can wear today point jersey and our comet van der Brock has white today.
Time for first mass sprint. Rodriquez has McEwen main helper has found..Kopp backwheel. McEwen is marked man Boonen with Freire is right behind him..at right side Credit Agricole sprint duo..Furlan and Hushovd..and look Valverde he also wants peace of that.
Hushovd opens the sprint..nice move by Rodriquez..he swich and takes Hushovd backwheel..Kopp is out..now Boonen has to do all the work at the main train. Freire is biggest threat by now.
Rodriquez starts he's sprint McEwen still follows..Hushovd seems to be out, but Boonen and Freire duo is strong..maybe Casper has chanche to surprise them all.
This is Boonen after all he's very long sprint..freire 2nd. McEwen fight and take 3rd. McEwen isnt yet on he's absolute peak form..after few stages he can be much stronger. Fresh USA champ Rodriquez was amazing today..5th.
Results:
1 Tom Boonen QUICKSTEP - INNERGETIC 4h43'11
2 Oscar Freire RABOBANK s.t.
3 Robbie McEwen PREDICTOR - LOTTO s.t. Player
4 Jimmy Casper UNIBET.COM s.t.
5 Fred Rodriguez PREDICTOR - LOTTO s.t. Player
6 Jean-Patrick Nazon AG2R PREVOYANCE s.t.
7 Thor Hushovd CREDIT AGRICOLE s.t.
8 Danilo Napolitano LAMPRE - FONDITAL s.t.
9 Angelo Furlan CREDIT AGRICOLE s.t.
10 Bernhard Eisel T-MOBILE TEAM s.t.
11 Heinrich Haussler GEROLSTEINER s.t.
12 Robert Förster GEROLSTEINER s.t.
13 Alejandro Valverde CAISSE D'EPARGNE s.t.
14 Gert Steegmans QUICKSTEP - INNERGETIC s.t.
15 David Kopp GEROLSTEINER s.t.
16 Mark Cavendish T-MOBILE TEAM s.t.
17 Enrico Gasparotto LIQUIGAS s.t.
18 Francisco Ventoso SAUNIER DUVAL - PRODIR s.t.
19 Allan Davis DISCOVERY CHANNEL s.t.
20 Koldo Fernandez EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI s.t.
21 Alberto Ongarato TEAM MILRAM s.t.
22 Fabian Wegmann GEROLSTEINER s.t.
23 Andreas Klöden ASTANA s.t.
24 Magnus Backstedt LIQUIGAS s.t.
25 Patrice Halgand CREDIT AGRICOLE s.t.
26 Matteo Carrara UNIBET.COM s.t.
27 Fabio Baldato LAMPRE - FONDITAL s.t.
28 Max Van Heeswijk RABOBANK s.t.
29 Samuel Dumoulin AG2R PREVOYANCE s.t.
30 Peter Van Petegem QUICKSTEP - INNERGETIC s.t.
GC:
1 Andreas Klöden ASTANA 4h53'27
2 Cadel Evans PREDICTOR - LOTTO + 1 Player
3 Jurgen Van den Broeck PREDICTOR - LOTTO + 4 Player
4 Bobby Julich TEAM CSC s.t.
5 Levi Leipheimer DISCOVERY CHANNEL + 5
6 Luis Leon Sanchez CAISSE D'EPARGNE + 10
7 Tom Boonen QUICKSTEP - INNERGETIC + 11
8 Alejandro Valverde CAISSE D'EPARGNE + 13
9 Carlos Sastre TEAM CSC + 14
10 Andrey Kashechkin ASTANA + 15
11 Markus Fothen GEROLSTEINER s.t.
12 Janez Brajkovic DISCOVERY CHANNEL s.t.
13 Tom Danielson DISCOVERY CHANNEL s.t.
14 Oscar Pereiro CAISSE D'EPARGNE s.t.
15 Linus Gerdemann T-MOBILE TEAM + 16
16 Haimar Zubeldia EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI s.t.
17 Andy Schleck TEAM CSC + 17
18 Alberto Contador DISCOVERY CHANNEL + 18
19 Yaroslav Popovych DISCOVERY CHANNEL + 20
20 Bradley Wiggins COFIDIS s.t.
21 Laszlo Bodrogi CREDIT AGRICOLE s.t.
22 Piotr Mazur SAUNIER DUVAL - PRODIR + 21
23 Denis Menchov RABOBANK + 22
24 Stijn Devolder DISCOVERY CHANNEL + 23
25 Sebastien Joly FRANCAISE DES JEUX + 24
26 Chris Horner PREDICTOR - LOTTO + 25 Player
27 Yuriy Krivtsov AG2R PREVOYANCE s.t.
28 Alberto MartÃÂnez T. AGRITUBEL s.t.
29 Christian Vandevelde TEAM CSC s.t.
30 Gustav Larsson UNIBET.COM s.t.
Points:
1 Tom Boonen QUICKSTEP - INNERGETIC 35 35
2 Oscar Freire RABOBANK 30 30
3 Robbie McEwen PREDICTOR - LOTTO 26 26
4 Jimmy Casper UNIBET.COM 24 24
5 Fred Rodriguez PREDICTOR - LOTTO 22 22
6 Jean-Patrick Nazon AG2R PREVOYANCE 20 20
7 Thor Hushovd CREDIT AGRICOLE 19 19
8 Andreas Klöden ASTANA 3 18
9 Danilo Napolitano LAMPRE - FONDITAL 18 18
10 Angelo Furlan CREDIT AGRICOLE 17 17
Edited by Guido Mukk on 04-10-2007 14:08
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| The Special One |
Posted on 04-10-2007 14:20
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 363
Joined: 19-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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the english could have been better, but this is a great story.
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| Guido Mukk |
Posted on 04-10-2007 16:41
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15830
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Stage 3
Dunkerque - Gand
Second day for sprinters, if McEwen desires green he has to be every day at front..and collect has many points has possible.
First surprise at the tour..Savoldelli with Inglisky who had done lot of work at front..to keep Klöden in yellow. Strange tactics for Astana..now one of the climbers are out...at GC competition.
Rodriquez trys to keep McEwen best train has possible..McEwen decided to make he's own decisions today. He stays close to Boonen.
Boonen zig-zag's to much to find train. McEwen choosing Unibet train..right behind the Casper.
Gasparotto with Eisel opens the sprint. Today McEwen tryed long sprint...he passes Unibet duo..and is in open water now..come on son. Boonen and Freire to behind.
McEwen takes a lead...
...and he wins the stage ,also green. Well done. Boonen blow up he's chanches to take a yellow today..tomorrow he will get another chanche.
Results:
1 Robbie McEwen PREDICTOR - LOTTO 3h49'18 Player
2 Bernhard Eisel T-MOBILE TEAM s.t.
3 Enrico Gasparotto LIQUIGAS s.t.
4 Jean-Patrick Nazon AG2R PREVOYANCE s.t.
5 Jimmy Casper UNIBET.COM s.t.
6 Heinrich Haussler GEROLSTEINER s.t.
7 Allan Davis DISCOVERY CHANNEL s.t.
8 Oscar Freire RABOBANK s.t.
9 Mark Cavendish T-MOBILE TEAM s.t.
10 Robert Förster GEROLSTEINER s.t.
11 Francisco Ventoso SAUNIER DUVAL - PRODIR s.t.
12 Tom Boonen QUICKSTEP - INNERGETIC s.t.
13 Fabio Sacchi TEAM MILRAM s.t.
14 Baden Cooke UNIBET.COM s.t.
15 Gert Steegmans QUICKSTEP - INNERGETIC s.t.
16 Alejandro Valverde CAISSE D'EPARGNE s.t.
17 David Kopp GEROLSTEINER s.t.
18 Angelo Furlan CREDIT AGRICOLE s.t.
19 Thor Hushovd CREDIT AGRICOLE s.t.
20 Steven De Jongh QUICKSTEP - INNERGETIC s.t.
21 Graeme Brown RABOBANK s.t.
22 Koldo Fernandez EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI s.t.
23 Danilo Napolitano LAMPRE - FONDITAL s.t.
24 Fabio Baldato LAMPRE - FONDITAL s.t.
25 Luciano Pagliarini SAUNIER DUVAL - PRODIR s.t.
26 Wouter Weylandt QUICKSTEP - INNERGETIC s.t.
27 Max Van Heeswijk RABOBANK s.t.
28 Manuel Quinziato LIQUIGAS s.t.
29 Peter Wrölich GEROLSTEINER s.t.
30 Murilo Fischer LIQUIGAS s.t.
GC:
1 Andreas Klöden ASTANA 8h42'45
2 Cadel Evans PREDICTOR - LOTTO + 1 Player
3 Jurgen Van den Broeck PREDICTOR - LOTTO + 4 Player
4 Bobby Julich TEAM CSC s.t.
5 Levi Leipheimer DISCOVERY CHANNEL + 5
6 Luis Leon Sanchez CAISSE D'EPARGNE + 10
7 Tom Boonen QUICKSTEP - INNERGETIC + 11
8 Alejandro Valverde CAISSE D'EPARGNE + 13
9 Carlos Sastre TEAM CSC + 14
10 Andrey Kashechkin ASTANA + 15
11 Tom Danielson DISCOVERY CHANNEL s.t.
12 Oscar Pereiro CAISSE D'EPARGNE s.t.
13 Janez Brajkovic DISCOVERY CHANNEL s.t.
14 Markus Fothen GEROLSTEINER s.t.
15 Linus Gerdemann T-MOBILE TEAM + 16
16 Haimar Zubeldia EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI s.t.
17 Andy Schleck TEAM CSC + 17
18 Alberto Contador DISCOVERY CHANNEL + 18
19 Yaroslav Popovych DISCOVERY CHANNEL + 20
20 Laszlo Bodrogi CREDIT AGRICOLE s.t.
21 Denis Menchov RABOBANK + 22
22 Stijn Devolder DISCOVERY CHANNEL + 23
23 Sebastien Joly FRANCAISE DES JEUX + 24
24 Yuriy Krivtsov AG2R PREVOYANCE + 25
25 Chris Horner PREDICTOR - LOTTO s.t. Player
26 Alberto MartiÂnez T. AGRITUBEL s.t.
27 Christian Vandevelde TEAM CSC s.t.
28 Benoit Vaugrenard FRANCAISE DES JEUX + 26
29 Mikel Astarloza EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI s.t.
30 George Hincapie DISCOVERY CHANNEL + 28
Sprint:
1 Robbie McEwen PREDICTOR - LOTTO 35 61
2 Tom Boonen QUICKSTEP - INNERGETIC 14 49
3 Oscar Freire RABOBANK 18 48
4 Jimmy Casper UNIBET.COM 22 46
5 Bernhard Eisel T-MOBILE TEAM 30 46
6 Jean-Patrick Nazon AG2R PREVOYANCE 24 44
7 Heinrich Haussler GEROLSTEINER 20 35
8 Enrico Gasparotto LIQUIGAS 26 35
9 Robert Förster GEROLSTEINER 16 30
10 Mark Cavendish T-MOBILE TEAM 17 27
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