golance123 wrote:
Question for Aquarius here... As a 20 year old runner looking to peak for an 8K cross country championship on November 1st, what should I be doing for speed intervals at this time of training? We race nearly ever Saturday starting in September leading up to the championship. Right now I am running about 25 miles a week at an easy pace to build a base (mileage increasing each week). I'm planning a 1600m time trial next week to test my fitness.
Interesting question. I don't know the answer !
There are different approaches, schools of thought, so I don't want to pretend that I have THE answer, as there's probably more than one. We all react to training differently, etc.
Now... Two things come to mind : First is that 8k means 25 to 30 minutes efforts. Second that it's done in fields, with a lot of altitude variation, mud and stuff like that.
I'll come back to the consequence of the first bit, but the second, coupled with the weekly competitions, means a risk of injury, and a need for strength and core to prevent or minimize injuries and perform. Work your core, you'll never do it nearly enough. Performing at the top level implies a lot of core and strength work, even for "endurance" runners, I'll never repeat it often enough.
Coming back to the first bit now : there's that chart in a magazine abstract I've downloaded, about the influence of different parameters on running performance. There are three parameters on the chart : miscellaneous, VO2 max, and endurance. Total is 100 % in every case. On 10 minutes effort : 97 % VO2 max, 3 % misc. 30 minutes efforts : 5 % misc, 1 % endurance, 94 % VO2 max. 60 minutes : 8 % misc, 3 % endurance, 89 % VO2. 150 minutes : 10 % misc., 12 % endurance, 78 % VO2 max.
You get the picture : don't waste time on useless stuff, VO2 max is where it's at for 25-30 minutes efforts.
The exercises to build up VO2 max are the same as mentioned for the guy above, just do them at speeds suited to you (but percentages remain valid). A ~20 minutes effort would be convenient in addition to your mile to assert your current level, if I may add. That'll give critical speed, anaerobic work capacity, VO2 max speed, etc.
I understand that your objective is on November 1st, but do you have a need for another smaller peak earlier (qualification race that'd require a high level of fitness, for example) ? If you can make it through such race on a normal build up for your peak let me know, if a real peak, albeit smaller, is needed let me know too.
I'd say the big picture in terms of planning is something like build up, shaping/sharpening, then objectives (peak). Build up means an increasing work load, that can be divided in 4 weeks blocks. Three weeks of increasing the work load, one week at two third of the average of the first three week, then a second block (same story as before, but a bigger work load over three weeks), and again.
By then you're fatigued, but you should be almost done with your first race(s), so it's time to "sharpen" : the aim will be to reduce fatigue, with an average to light work load, plus preparation races. Fatigue decreases much faster than physical condition, so that's when you'll be able to perform best.
You need two tools though : something to quantify workload, and something to quantify fatigue.
Workload : either time, either distance spent in different intensity zones, per session and per week.
Fatigue : either you have a heart rate monitor that can measure heart rate variability, either you'll do it old school : on a scale of 1 (great) to 10 (very poor), rate your fatigue and your mood every day when you wake up.
Also check up your weight when you wake up (after peeing), every day from now till November 1st, and keep note of it.
I'll let you deal with that, ask for more details if/when needed. Edited by Aquarius on 10-06-2014 20:46
golance123 wrote:
Question for Aquarius here... As a 20 year old runner looking to peak for an 8K cross country championship on November 1st, what should I be doing for speed intervals at this time of training? We race nearly ever Saturday starting in September leading up to the championship. Right now I am running about 25 miles a week at an easy pace to build a base (mileage increasing each week). I'm planning a 1600m time trial next week to test my fitness.
Interesting question. I don't know the answer !
There are different approaches, schools of thought, so I don't want to pretend that I have THE answer, as there's probably more than one. We all react to training differently, etc.
Now... Two things come to mind : First is that 8k means 25 to 30 minutes efforts. Second that it's done in fields, with a lot of altitude variation, mud and stuff like that.
I'll come back to the consequence of the first bit, but the second, coupled with the weekly competitions, means a risk of injury, and a need for strength and core to prevent or minimize injuries and perform. Work your core, you'll never do it nearly enough. Performing at the top level implies a lot of core and strength work, even for "endurance" runners, I'll never repeat it often enough.
Coming back to the first bit now : there's that chart in a magazine abstract I've downloaded, about the influence of different parameters on running performance. There are three parameters on the chart : miscellaneous, VO2 max, and endurance. Total is 100 % in every case. On 10 minutes effort : 97 % VO2 max, 3 % misc. 30 minutes efforts : 5 % misc, 1 % endurance, 94 % VO2 max. 60 minutes : 8 % misc, 3 % endurance, 89 % VO2. 150 minutes : 10 % misc., 12 % endurance, 78 % VO2 max.
You get the picture : don't waste time on useless stuff, VO2 max is where it's at for 25-30 minutes efforts.
The exercises to build up VO2 max are the same as mentioned for the guy above, just do them at speeds suited to you (but percentages remain valid). A ~20 minutes effort would be convenient in addition to your mile to assert your current level, if I may add. That'll give critical speed, anaerobic work capacity, VO2 max speed, etc.
I understand that your objective is on November 1st, but do you have a need for another smaller peak earlier (qualification race that'd require a high level of fitness, for example) ? If you can make it through such race on a normal build up for your peak let me know, if a real peak, albeit smaller, is needed let me know too.
I'd say the big picture in terms of planning is something like build up, shaping/sharpening, then objectives (peak). Build up means an increasing work load, that can be divided in 4 weeks blocks. Three weeks of increasing the work load, one week at two third of the average of the first three week, then a second block (same story as before, but a bigger work load over three weeks), and again.
By then you're fatigued, but you should be almost done with your first race(s), so it's time to "sharpen" : the aim will be to reduce fatigue, with an average to light work load, plus preparation races. Fatigue decreases much faster than physical condition, so that's when you'll be able to perform best.
You need two tools though : something to quantify workload, and something to quantify fatigue.
Workload : either time, either distance spent in different intensity zones, per session and per week.
Fatigue : either you have a heart rate monitor that can measure heart rate variability, either you'll do it old school : on a scale of 1 (great) to 10 (very poor), rate your fatigue and your mood every day when you wake up.
Also check up your weight when you wake up (after peeing), every day from now till November 1st, and keep note of it.
I'll let you deal with that, ask for more details if/when needed.
Wow thanks for the post Aquarius! As a guy looking to run sub 30 on an 8k x-c course, what should I aim my interval paces at for varying distances? I believe a few pages back we calculated my potential at 29:30 for the 8K with a 69.0 VO2 Max.
Also, I spent most of last summer logging miles upon miles under my aerobic max heart rate. This greatly increased my endurance, but I only got a few seconds faster in the 8K. I'm really looking to maximize my performance because this is my 10th and final season of cross country (college senior). I realize this has to come from VO2 Max work. I greatly appreciate your advice! Heading out for an easy run now
Did a 5000m test run today in pretty good conditions. Came in at 19.05.57.
All in all, I was reasonably pleased with my effort eventhough I think I could have finished somewhat stronger. Still, I probably only lost about 5, maybe 10 seconds over the course of the entire run.
So, if my goal is to get back to the same form I was last year, I have a month-and-a-half to slice about 40-45 seconds of my time. But that's just to keep the same "timetable".
18.21 is still the goal for the whole season.
There's a fine line between "psychotherapist" and "psycho the rapist"
PCM.Daily NFL Fantasy Football Champion: 2012 PCM.Daily NHL Prediction Game Champion: 2013 PCM.Daily NFL Prediction Game Champion: 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2021
@golance123 : we should reassess your different speeds and thresholds after your coming tests, but on the basis of your best, mine and cactus-jack's, I wrote this in February (time flies...) :
Aquarius wrote:
Yeah, more like old-fashionned with a rigid mind. I've printed charts at work, I'll see if he only looks at them Wenesday evening.
Cheers for the numbers.
Meanwhile I've improved my 5000m and my mile time, 18:31 and 5:31 respectively.
So far "our" equations for 3 to 30 minutes efforts say :
Aquarius : D = 4.28 t + 244
golance123 : D = 4.34 t + 303
cactus-jack : D = 4.44 t + 108
with D as distance (in metres), and t in seconds
Our VO2 max (in mlO2/min/kg) seem to be :
Aquarius : 66.7
golance123 : 69.1
cactus-jack : 62.6
Our VO2 max speed are :
Aquarius : S = 5.34 m/s (or 19.2 km/h)
golance123 : S = 5.52 m/s (or 19.9 km/h)
cactus-jack : S = 5.02 m/s (or 18.1 km/h)
And we can sustain that for :
Aquarius : t = 3:50 or 1 224 m
golance123 : t = 4:16 or 1 414 m
cactus-jack : t = 3:06 or 935 m
So, 200 and 300 m at 100 to 105 % of VO2max speed should respectively be done in 35 and 52 seconds. Going faster won't help much for VO2, it'd mostly turn into a lactic capacity exercise (it'd increase the 'reserve' distance though, but don't go above 120 %).
400 and 500 and 600 m (you could also go for 700 given you can theoretically maintain your VO2 max speed for 1400+ m) at 100 % would mean 1'12", 1'31", 1'49" (and 2'07" for 700).
During a 20 minutes threshold effort, you should cover between 4 900 and 5 200 m.
I understood that it's not meant to be done at or above critical speed (~90% of VO2 max speed), but at or slightly above your constant lactate threshold speed (~80 % of VO2 max speed).
***
I also have the 'cycling culture' issue, and do way too much endurance for the distances I run in competition (from 5 to 21.1). Old habits die hard.
As for my figures above, my own PB is 5:19 on a mile (there's still lots of room for improvement), and I could certainly better my 5 000 as well, I came 9 seconds shy on a 10 k race last Friday, despite the major heat. I'd say I expect my critical speed to be around 4.40 m/s these days.
Edited by Aquarius on 10-06-2014 22:34
Aquarius wrote:
@golance123 : we should reassess your different speeds and thresholds after your coming tests, but on the basis of your best, mine and cactus-jack's, I wrote this in February (time flies...) :
Aquarius wrote:
Yeah, more like old-fashionned with a rigid mind. I've printed charts at work, I'll see if he only looks at them Wenesday evening.
Cheers for the numbers.
Meanwhile I've improved my 5000m and my mile time, 18:31 and 5:31 respectively.
So far "our" equations for 3 to 30 minutes efforts say :
Aquarius : D = 4.28 t + 244
golance123 : D = 4.34 t + 303
cactus-jack : D = 4.44 t + 108
with D as distance (in metres), and t in seconds
Our VO2 max (in mlO2/min/kg) seem to be :
Aquarius : 66.7
golance123 : 69.1
cactus-jack : 62.6
Our VO2 max speed are :
Aquarius : S = 5.34 m/s (or 19.2 km/h)
golance123 : S = 5.52 m/s (or 19.9 km/h)
cactus-jack : S = 5.02 m/s (or 18.1 km/h)
And we can sustain that for :
Aquarius : t = 3:50 or 1 224 m
golance123 : t = 4:16 or 1 414 m
cactus-jack : t = 3:06 or 935 m
So, 200 and 300 m at 100 to 105 % of VO2max speed should respectively be done in 35 and 52 seconds. Going faster won't help much for VO2, it'd mostly turn into a lactic capacity exercise (it'd increase the 'reserve' distance though, but don't go above 120 %).
400 and 500 and 600 m (you could also go for 700 given you can theoretically maintain your VO2 max speed for 1400+ m) at 100 % would mean 1'12", 1'31", 1'49" (and 2'07" for 700).
During a 20 minutes threshold effort, you should cover between 4 900 and 5 200 m.
I understood that it's not meant to be done at or above critical speed (~90% of VO2 max speed), but at or slightly above your constant lactate threshold speed (~80 % of VO2 max speed).
***
I also have the 'cycling culture' issue, and do way too much endurance for the distances I run in competition (from 5 to 21.1). Old habits die hard.
As for my figures above, my own PB is 5:19 on a mile (there's still lots of room for improvement), and I could certainly better my 5 000 as well, I came 9 seconds shy on a 10 k race last Friday, despite the major heat. I'd say I expect my critical speed to be around 4.40 m/s these days.
So with the 400m at 1'12", is that what I should do 400m repeats at? And same for the other distances with their respective times?
Seriously now, the numbers of repetitions will be a variable to adjust the workload. It'll also depend on how your fatigue numbers evolve. If numbers go ballistic you've done too much, if they remain low you could have probably done more.
To give a rough idea, for 8k races, I'd say the total distance done 'at speed' should be around 5 km. Perhaps do 4-5-6 k, or 5, 6, 7 if you can handle it in weeks 1, 2, 3. Then maybe only 3 or 4 k per session on week number 4.
Recuperation times : try to have them constant during a session.
Shortest : consider you'd have covered the whole distance at ~80 % of VO2 max speed.
Longest : same time as the exercise.
Also, short intervals have proven to be efficient when it comes to increasing the sustainable times for VO2 max, so 15-15" or 20-20", even 30-30" during 2x10 or 2x12 minutes once a week can be a good exercise.
Seriously now, the numbers of repetitions will be a variable to adjust the workload. It'll also depend on how your fatigue numbers evolve. If numbers go ballistic you've done too much, if they remain low you could have probably done more.
To give a rough idea, for 8k races, I'd say the total distance done 'at speed' should be around 5 km. Perhaps do 4-5-6 k, or 5, 6, 7 if you can handle it in weeks 1, 2, 3. Then maybe only 3 or 4 k per session on week number 4.
Recuperation times : try to have them constant during a session.
Shortest : consider you'd have covered the whole distance at ~80 % of VO2 max speed.
Longest : same time as the exercise.
Also, short intervals have proven to be efficient when it comes to increasing the sustainable times for VO2 max, so 15-15" or 20-20", even 30-30" during 2x10 or 2x12 minutes once a week can be a good exercise.
So hypothetically week 1 could be 10x400 at 72 seconds? Am I on the right track here?
Yes, that's the point. Week one, say Wednesday session : 10x400 in 72 seconds. Week two : 12x400 in 72 seconds, week 3 : 15x400, week 4 : 8x400, etc.
That's if you only do 400 on Wednesday, which might be dull, but that's the idea anyway.
Just how much do you think it's possible for me to slice off my 5k time in a month and-a-half?
I'm about 40 sec. away from what I'm aiming at, 18.21. I strongly doubt I'll there by late July, but hopefully I will be as close as possible.
I'm currently at four sessions per week (monday, tuesday, thursday and friday). I was thinking something along the lines of 1-2 intervall sessions (long and short), 1 tempo run and 1 long run (50min+), perhaps adding fartlek or something similar to spice it up.
There's a fine line between "psychotherapist" and "psycho the rapist"
I'd pretty much give you the same advices as above (or on the previous pages), focus on VO2 max, nothing else (not much else) if you're aiming for 5k.
How much you can improve is difficult to tell, it mostly depends on your 'trainability', it's very variable between people.
I've pretty much given up on 'long intervals' (it pisses my coach but it really makes sense).
The longest intervals I do are half my VO2 max distance (speed x sustainable time) , that's 600 m in my case.
I'd rather do a second intervals or VO2max session instead.
Not sure how fast is your tempo session, I believe I'd do a threshold session here instead (threshold : I4 (aerobic and anaerobic); tempo : I3 (fully aerobic)).
With a reasonable reserve of 240 m and a critical speed of 4.41 m/s (that's 37:50 on 10k, I believe it's your PB ?), your time could be 18:01.
So if I understand you correctly, i should focus on shorter intervalls at about 450m at 1.19 according to the numbers you posted earlier? For example 10x450m?
The tempo session would be 20-25 minutes at 3:55-4:00min/km.
There's a fine line between "psychotherapist" and "psycho the rapist"
Aquarius wrote:
Yes, that's the point. Week one, say Wednesday session : 10x400 in 72 seconds. Week two : 12x400 in 72 seconds, week 3 : 15x400, week 4 : 8x400, etc.
That's if you only do 400 on Wednesday, which might be dull, but that's the idea anyway.
If my season does not start until September, when should I begin these VO2 Max workouts? And what do I do between intervals (rest, jog, etc.)?
cactus-jack wrote:
So if I understand you correctly, i should focus on shorter intervalls at about 450m at 1.19 according to the numbers you posted earlier? For example 10x450m?
The tempo session would be 20-25 minutes at 3:55-4:00min/km.
1) 450 in 1'19" seems a bit fast (I believe that's 105 % of VO2 max speed for you ?) I wouldn't do 105 % on something longer than 300 m but you can give it a try.
400 m might also be easier to do if you run around a track.
2) Tempo sessions : the pace is spot on, but 25 minutes is too long. 15 to 20 minutes seems to be enough.
That's based on a book I have with the typical training week of 5000 m champions through the ages. Almost everything is done between 95 and 105 % of VO2 max speed, threshold/pace is very reduced.
golance123 wrote:
Aquarius wrote:
Yes, that's the point. Week one, say Wednesday session : 10x400 in 72 seconds. Week two : 12x400 in 72 seconds, week 3 : 15x400, week 4 : 8x400, etc.
That's if you only do 400 on Wednesday, which might be dull, but that's the idea anyway.
If my season does not start until September, when should I begin these VO2 Max workouts? And what do I do between intervals (rest, jog, etc.)?
I'd say start as soon as possible, albeit with a lesser amount of specific work. Keep track of your fatigue though, I know you're probably wondering if you'll be cooked come September if you start too early, but with a smart management of fatigue it shouldn't happen.
There are different ideas on what to do between intervals. I used to jog, at my club we just rest, some advise to walk.
From my knowledge, but I'm opened to new ideas, it seems the greatest benefits come from a constant acceleration or deceleration, so : run, jog, walk, stop, walk, jog, run. Or something like that.
Okay, perhaps something closer to 1:30 for the intervalls, then. My only "problem" is that where I am now is an area plagued by wind so most of the time, target times go out the window.
There's a fine line between "psychotherapist" and "psycho the rapist"
Same here, I've been doing 200s tonight, but on the whole track, so one was out of the window, and the other one was so easily in. I still managed to awake my adductor tendinitis, and the heat made my heart frequency very weird : on the way back from the track, at 4'48 per km or something (that's barely 70 % of my VO2 max speed), my heart rate got stuck at 165-170, which are values expected for ~80-85 % of my VO2max speed.
Also for your VO2 max speed, try to do another assessment on a short duration, your 1540 m or something was really slow for your potential.
I'll be doing a 1500-ish run as soon as possible. Judging by the ten day forecast next week looks possible, but it might be weeks untill we get low enough win speeds for a test run to make sense.
Most of the time it's a tradeoff; if you wanna have fresh legs you might miss out on several training sessions due to waiting for better weather, but if you don't want to needlessly miss out on a lot of training you might have to be ready to go on a minutes notice, so to speak.
There's a fine line between "psychotherapist" and "psycho the rapist"
Last time I wrote my max was 21:10 on a 5 km and had to train for a competetion.
Well I didn't get to train running, since I only train once a week on my own (play floorball 2 times beside training on my own) and the weather was beautiful, so I decided to take my bike for a 40 km ride with 25-26 km/t in average (I know.....) during a quite hilly (for me at least) course, where I tried to ride the climbs as fast as possible.
Then the competetion day came, and it turns out to be a relay: Running 5 km - cycling 15 km - running 5 km - cycling 15 km - running 5 km
I had to do all the running apparently....
I decided to do the first run without putting much effort into it. I did it in 23 minutes and 10 seconds.
I had to wait around 30-35 minutes before my next run would take place.
Did it a bit faster, but not all in. Time: 21:46
Again I had to wait 30-35 minutes to do the last run. I tried to keep up 4:00 per km, and it went quite well until 2 km before the goal. I couldn't keep up the pace, and dropped a few seconds there. I did the last run in 20:40 ...........
Last time I did my "5 km test" max was 21:10, so without training (running specific) I gained 30 seconds and this was on the last run...Dunno what my max is.
Just a lulz story to tell
Present:
Tinkoff-Saxo - AG2R - Colombian riders
Past:
Francisco Mancebo - Illes balears - Carlos Sastre - Kelme - Robbie McEwen
I'm time trialing a 1600m later this evening. I'm hoping for a sub 5:20, but I have no idea what to expect considering I am nowhere near top shape. On another note, does anybody know of healthy ways to cut upper body mass? I weigh about 68 kg at 170 cm. I am relatively lean, I just naturally have a muscular frame. I want to cut down on unnecessary upper body muscle for cross country in the fall.
