After playing with Saxo Bank, I have a few suggestion for altering the DB
Alexandr Kolobnev’s sprint stat is only 60, which I think is way to little. He´s actually a very good finisher, although he´s not quite in same mould as Bettini or Valverde. This season he has produced the following results:
- 3rd on the 2nd stage og Tour of Austria only beaten by Bettini and Van Avermaet
- 2nd in San Sebastian only beaten by Valverde in the sprint, but beating the likes of Rebellin, Pellizotti and Samuel Sanchez
- Several other top 10´s in stages and classics after sprints.
Last season he also beat Schumacher for silver in the sprint at the World championships.
However I feel that he is overrated in the mountain stat (74), as I haven´t seen him proving himself in the high mountains. As I see him, he is a good hilly rider with a good finish. Maybe around around 70 in sprint would be better and downgrading his mountain stat to 68-70 or something like that.
When looking at Marcus Ljungqvist's stats, you get the impression that he is a rider best suited for hilly classics. He’s capable of riding in hilly classics, but he is best at the flat and cobbled classics, which is also the races that he always participates in, which is why I think his stat for flat and hills should be switched.
Fuglsang and Breschel
In the Tour of Denmark these two young danes battled it out for the overall victory in the ITT. Fuglsang finished 5th, while Breschel only got 25th. Therefore my suggestion is to downgrade Breschel to 63 or 64 and up Fuglsang to 66 or 67. While we are at Breschel, he really stepped us his level this fall coming 2nd on stage 17 in the Vuelta and winning the final stage of the Vuelta both after mass sprints and impressive domestique riding in the mountains in the Vuelta for Sastre and Van Goolen. (Breschel finished 48 overall) This has also led to him being pre-selected for the Tour team for 2009, so his mountain stat should be increased as well to around 65 and maybe his sprint stat upped by a point or two. Right now in the DB Arvesen has a higher sprint stat...
Stuart O´Grady had most of his season ruined by the crash in the 2007 tour and when finally back in form he crashed again in the Giro. At the Herald Sun Tour he finally started showing his qualities winning the TT ahead of Lars Bak and Ben Day, who are known to be good timetrialers. Looking at his palmares he has also always shown that he is a quite good TT´er, which I don’t think is reflected on his stat (61)
In the last seasons he has produced the following results in TT´s:
2007: 8th in California, 14th in Tirreno and17th in Tour de Suisse
2006: 3rd in Dauphine Libere prologue, 5th in the Tour prologue, 5th in Tour of Denmark, 9th and 6th in the Vuelta
I would say that his TT skil should be around 73 or something like that.
I don´t really have any statistics on this matter, but imo Cancellara’s downhilling is seriously underrated. I know the downhill stat isn’t the most important, but a rider that rides descents like a motorbike should have a much higher stat than 62. I would say at least 75. He´s definately not the team’s 7th worst at downhilling.
Gustav Larsson
Nothing to add regarding his stats, but it must be a mistake, that number 23 on the CQranking only has a potential of 4. Imo Larsson should have 6 in potential.
Van Goolen´s TT stat is only 62, which i think is seriously underrated. Looking at his palmares he has always shown good results in timetrials and in this years Vuelta, he came 5th at the only long flat TT beating, Schumacher, Lang, Klöden and Ignatiev among others. Team Saxo Bank rates him highly and has made him captain of the Giro team and he is still fairly young (28), why an increase in potential from 5 to 6 imo also could be justified, while his TT stat should be around 73-74.
In the editor I noticed that neo pro Michael Mørkøv has 6 as potential. I know it is very difficult to predict how a rider will develop, but imo that is a bit too much as it could mean he could turn into a top rider. A potential of maximum 5, I would say is much more appropriate.
Kasper Klostergaard
This domestique is imo the weakest rider on TSB and I would be very surprised if he ever developed in to much more than a decent domestique. In the DB, he has a potential of 5, which I think is too high, as I think 4 would be more appropriate. However Klostergaard and especially Anders Lund are rated too weak in the DB. They have been recruited from the danish continental team because they were the stars of these teams, but compared to the other riders on these teams, they are some of the worst, which I especially don’t think reflects there actual ability as Anders Lund managed to grab a 10th overall in Tour de Wallonie and 19th in Het Volk this season.
I haven’t looked so much at other riders, but I have stumbled over a couple of other riders, who I think needs to be tweaked.
Thomas Voeckler
A great all rounder, however I find it odd that his highest stat apart from his obiously high fighter stat is his mountain stat at 75. Imo he’s much better at riding in hills than in mountains as he really haven’t showed his montain abilities since 2004.
Zaugg – Tschoop
Lookin at the stats in the DB you get the impression that Tschoop is the better stage racer of the two swiss’. However in real life, Tchoops best overall results is, 18th in Pais Vasco, 17th in Tour of Germany this season and a 13th in Volta a Catalunya last season. Zaugg on the other hand has proved his worth at GT level finishing 15th in the 2007 Vuelta and 11th in this years edition, despite being very bad at TT. So i think Zaugg should have at least his mountain and recovery stat raised, so that is higher than Tschoops.
Nicholas Roche
Nicholas Roche had his big breakthrough in this years Vuelta finishing 13th. This is not reflected in his stats, as he has an average of 67 and only 64 in his mountain stat. Based on his 2008 season i think he should have a general increase in his stats, with his mountain stat as the most important and also his potential upped from 5 to 6.
Gerald Ciolek
Just think that his potential should be raised from 5 to 6, as I think he has the potential to be one of the top sprinters. He’s very young but have alreayd taken many victories and unlike Cavendish he is capable of climbing quite well for a sprinter.
Jurgen Roelandts
This young sprinter gained 32! Top 10 in his first season as a pro. Even though it’s not the top races he gained them in, I think he deserves an increase in his sprint stat from 74 to 77-78.
Eros Capecchi
I can’t find Eros Capecchi in the database, but according to this link he’ll continue on the Fuji-Servetto-team: https://www.velo-c...?sid=32287
I know this post is a bit long, but I feel that suggestions to improve this otherwise very good database should be thoroughly backed up by statistics and arguments.
Kompakt wrote:
Jurgen Roelandts
This young sprinter gained 32! Top 10 in his first season as a pro. Even though it’s not the top races he gained them in, I think he deserves an increase in his sprint stat from 74 to 77-78.
top 10s are'nt that impressive for a sprinter so i think his stats are probably as they should be, especially as the sprints are in smaller races. david millar got a top 10 on the champs elysees in 07!
Before you read this, realise the db team won't care at all about your points. But I do.......which is irrelevant
Kompakt wrote:
Alexandr Kolobnev’s sprint stat is only 60, which I think is way to little. He´s actually a very good finisher, although he´s not quite in same mould as Bettini or Valverde. This season he has produced the following results:
- 3rd on the 2nd stage og Tour of Austria only beaten by Bettini and Van Avermaet
- 2nd in San Sebastian only beaten by Valverde in the sprint, but beating the likes of Rebellin, Pellizotti and Samuel Sanchez
- Several other top 10´s in stages and classics after sprints.
Last season he also beat Schumacher for silver in the sprint at the World championships.
However I feel that he is overrated in the mountain stat (74), as I haven´t seen him proving himself in the high mountains. As I see him, he is a good hilly rider with a good finish. Maybe around around 70 in sprint would be better and downgrading his mountain stat to 68-70 or something like that.
agreed on all counts
Kompakt wrote:
When looking at Marcus Ljungqvist's stats, you get the impression that he is a rider best suited for hilly classics. He’s capable of riding in hilly classics, but he is best at the flat and cobbled classics, which is also the races that he always participates in, which is why I think his stat for flat and hills should be switched.
Yes, he's a very fine cobbles rider, capable of doing some very high results in Roubaix.
Kompakt wrote:
Fuglsang and Breschel
In the Tour of Denmark these two young danes battled it out for the overall victory in the ITT. Fuglsang finished 5th, while Breschel only got 25th. Therefore my suggestion is to downgrade Breschel to 63 or 64 and up Fuglsang to 66 or 67. While we are at Breschel, he really stepped us his level this fall coming 2nd on stage 17 in the Vuelta and winning the final stage of the Vuelta both after mass sprints and impressive domestique riding in the mountains in the Vuelta for Sastre and Van Goolen. (Breschel finished 48 overall) This has also led to him being pre-selected for the Tour team for 2009, so his mountain stat should be increased as well to around 65 and maybe his sprint stat upped by a point or two. Right now in the DB Arvesen has a higher sprint stat...
I think the sprinting is fine. He's a better all round rider than in the db, indeed
Kompakt wrote:
Stuart O´Grady had most of his season ruined by the crash in the 2007 tour and when finally back in form he crashed again in the Giro. At the Herald Sun Tour he finally started showing his qualities winning the TT ahead of Lars Bak and Ben Day, who are known to be good timetrialers. Looking at his palmares he has also always shown that he is a quite good TT´er, which I don’t think is reflected on his stat (61)
In the last seasons he has produced the following results in TT´s:
2007: 8th in California, 14th in Tirreno and17th in Tour de Suisse
2006: 3rd in Dauphine Libere prologue, 5th in the Tour prologue, 5th in Tour of Denmark, 9th and 6th in the Vuelta
I would say that his TT skil should be around 73 or something like that.
Yes, he's always been a pretty good TT rider. That's just one of those things that most DB makers seem to ignore despite it being obvious. Like Sastre's stamina, Horrach's sprinting, Pereiro's downhill, Kolobnev's sprinting, Ciolek's climbing. etc etc etc
Kompakt wrote:
I don´t really have any statistics on this matter, but imo Cancellara’s downhilling is seriously underrated. I know the downhill stat isn’t the most important, but a rider that rides descents like a motorbike should have a much higher stat than 62. I would say at least 75. He´s definately not the team’s 7th worst at downhilling.
His high weight helps him to be very fast in non-technical descents.
Kompakt wrote:
Van Goolen´s TT stat is only 62, which i think is seriously underrated.
Underrated? Yes. Seriously? No.
Kompakt wrote:
Looking at his palmares he has always shown good results in timetrials and in this years Vuelta, he came 5th at the only long flat TT beating, Schumacher, Lang, Klöden and Ignatiev among others.
Huge variations in winds are usually responsible for insane TT performances. This is just another of the many cases. That's a bad example for you to use
Kompakt wrote:
Kasper Klostergaard
This domestique is imo the weakest rider on TSB and I would be very surprised if he ever developed in to much more than a decent domestique. In the DB, he has a potential of 5, which I think is too high, as I think 4 would be more appropriate. However Klostergaard and especially Anders Lund are rated too weak in the DB. They have been recruited from the danish continental team because they were the stars of these teams, but compared to the other riders on these teams, they are some of the worst, which I especially don’t think reflects there actual ability as Anders Lund managed to grab a 10th overall in Tour de Wallonie and 19th in Het Volk this season.
Lund I'd say is overrated. Klostergaard seems pitifully underrated. He does fantastic work sacrificing his own chances. How a rider like that gets 54 for cobbles is beyond me. But hey, he's not a star, so who cares about his stats, right?
Kompakt wrote:
Zaugg – Tschoop
Lookin at the stats in the DB you get the impression that Tschoop is the better stage racer of the two swiss’. However in real life, Tchoops best overall results is, 18th in Pais Vasco, 17th in Tour of Germany this season and a 13th in Volta a Catalunya last season. Zaugg on the other hand has proved his worth at GT level finishing 15th in the 2007 Vuelta and 11th in this years edition, despite being very bad at TT. So i think Zaugg should have at least his mountain and recovery stat raised, so that is higher than Tschoops.
Nicholas Roche
Nicholas Roche had his big breakthrough in this years Vuelta finishing 13th. This is not reflected in his stats, as he has an average of 67 and only 64 in his mountain stat. Based on his 2008 season i think he should have a general increase in his stats, with his mountain stat as the most important and also his potential upped from 5 to 6.
Gerald Ciolek
Just think that his potential should be raised from 5 to 6, as I think he has the potential to be one of the top sprinters. He’s very young but have alreayd taken many victories and unlike Cavendish he is capable of climbing quite well for a sprinter.
Jurgen Roelandts
This young sprinter gained 32! Top 10 in his first season as a pro. Even though it’s not the top races he gained them in, I think he deserves an increase in his sprint stat from 74 to 77-78.
Eros Capecchi
I can’t find Eros Capecchi in the database, but according to this link he’ll continue on the Fuji-Servetto-team: https://www.velo-c...?sid=32287
I know this post is a bit long, but I feel that suggestions to improve this otherwise very good database should be thoroughly backed up by statistics and arguments.
Agreed on all counts except Roelandts, and Roche is not THAT good, as his final vuelta standing was due to many, many time-winning breakaways on the flat
Edited by issoisso on 23-12-2008 11:23
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
CrueTrue wrote:
All suggestions are welcome, aavf. Looking forward to your ideas
After reading this I thought the DB-team might have interest in the users views of the stats.
Anyways thanks for commenting on my post and nice to see that you agree on some of my views.
Regarding Roche I can only see he gained time from a breakaway on stage 18 and this was 7.29. If you add this he would have ended as 17th, still quite impressive imo.
Roche's fellow countryman Philip Deignan who's even a year older has better stats in the DB, and his best result is a 25th in the Tour of Germany.
Jurgen Van Goolen has to be very lucky if all of his good results in ITT is down to wind changing
Armstrong, Leipheimer, Voigt and same old guys are must have pot 8. Their attributes are decreasing and decreasing and only decreasing.. It isn't realistic
Roman wrote:
Armstrong, Leipheimer, Voigt and same old guys are must have pot 8. Their attributes are decreasing and decreasing and only decreasing.. It isn't realistic
Not that I have tested it, but wouldn't it work by raising their declining age?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say somewhere else that you wouldn't listen to stats complaints?
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
issoisso wrote:
Before you read this, realise the db team won't care at all about your points. But I do.......which is irrelevant
Kompakt wrote:
I don´t really have any statistics on this matter, but imo Cancellara’s downhilling is seriously underrated. I know the downhill stat isn’t the most important, but a rider that rides descents like a motorbike should have a much higher stat than 62. I would say at least 75. He´s definately not the team’s 7th worst at downhilling.
His high weight helps him to be very fast in non-technical descents.
Well, Brian Holm (Directeur Sportif at Columbia) said at last years Tour of Switzerland, that Cancellara is "one of those riders you enjoy watching on a downhill" and stated that he had good technical ability
Roman wrote:
Armstrong, Leipheimer, Voigt and same old guys are must have pot 8. Their attributes are decreasing and decreasing and only decreasing.. It isn't realistic
Not that I have tested it, but wouldn't it work by raising their declining age?
See for the first part of 09 Armstrong will improve as he trains
Agreed on all counts except Roelandts, and Roche is not THAT good, as his final vuelta standing was due to many, many time-winning breakaways on the flat
You mean one.
He came 14th in the TT and stuck with the climbers on most mountain stages.
Agreed on all counts except Roelandts, and Roche is not THAT good, as his final vuelta standing was due to many, many time-winning breakaways on the flat
You mean one.
He came 14th in the TT and stuck with the climbers on most mountain stages.
sorry. engrish fail. It's supposed to read "much much time-winning breakaways (...)"
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
Kompakt wrote:
Jurgen Van Goolen has to be very lucky if all of his good results in ITT is down to wind changing
You misunderstood. You picked as your top example the Vuelta TT, where the wind was the major factor.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
