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The Doping Game
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| wackojackohighcliffe |
Posted on 29-09-2008 18:58
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Grand Tour Champion
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SportingNonsense wrote:
wackojackohighcliffe wrote:
Waghlon wrote:
Wacko, you sound like those mouthbreathing PCM-Geeks.dk users who say they will stop supporting cycling if a Schleck gets caught, because we all know that [some rider] is the paragon is innocence and will never dope 
*disclaimer: general stab at everyone, not just at Cavendish*
i didn't say that waghlon. i meant that i probably won't support gb anymore if he goes because of their 'we 100% don't dope ' attitude. i'd rather they looked dodgy and were than had a huge charade
If Cavendish did dope, do you really think he would tell the British set up that he did so?
i doubt the british set up a little. maybe they're doing it.
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-12-2024 14:07
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| Macquet |
Posted on 29-09-2008 19:11
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Domestique
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[b]issoisso wrote:
Riccò was tested 10 times and only 2 came back positive. Even Riccò pointed that out. The urine test was very sucky, as are most tests for most stuff. Let's hope this blood test is almost 100% reliable.
That is a good point, I had forgotten that. We have the same problem in baseball with HGH, because it is only testable by blood values, and even then only as a comparison because everyone's level of naturally occurring growth hormone is different...unless you are abnormally high because that would make you a giant. |
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| matt493 |
Posted on 29-09-2008 20:45
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Classics Specialist
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it isnt hincapie for sure
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| Waghlon |
Posted on 29-09-2008 20:50
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Grand Tour Champion
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matt493 wrote:
it isnt hincapie for sure
Of course it isnt Matt. Why is it he is completely innocent again?
THE THOMAS VOECKLER PROPHET OF PCM DAILY
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 30-09-2008 07:44
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jacknic wrote:
And they always appoint that rider as the paragon of innocence themselves despite no proof to support it, just because they like that rider....
Instead of "appointing" a rider that actually has any chance of being clean.
The same could be said about most of the riders being called dopers on these boards. The proof often seems to be either "he is performing well, so he must be doping" or "i don't like him, he is doping." Well, what's the point of doping, and how much does it affect your performances ?
Answers : doping doesn't tan you blue or green, it makes you stronger. Stronger enough to change a clean top 30 rider in monuments into a potential winner, or a clean top 20 (GC) rider into a top 5 contender.
The injustice created by a guy who wins races is way bigger than the one of a rider who would dope just to hang on in the peloton, it's then natural to pick at the first ones in priority. |
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| brun sweater |
Posted on 30-09-2008 08:10
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Neo-Pro
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no, the injustice is excactly the same, whether you win or just hang on. And speaking of injustice. Accusing particular riders of cheating, based on level of performance, isn't really justified is it? When have history taught us that the aim justifies the means? I'd say never! |
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| jacknic |
Posted on 30-09-2008 10:17
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Domestique
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Excatly brun sweater. My point is that someone has to be the best rider. Even if a bunch of overweight asmatics were riding the tour, someone would win. Does that mean that that guy was doped up (apart from his astma medicine obviously).
And I seriously don't get why it is so important for people to point the finger at every winner (except Cavendish for some reason?). Is it that great to be able to come on here and poit out how right you were?
I'd rather be dissapointed than right. |
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| christoph |
Posted on 30-09-2008 10:28
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Amateur
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hallo |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 30-09-2008 10:33
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Except for asthma, we wouldn't have much clue about whether the guys are doped or not (if it were a bunch of random asthmatics).
It's not exactly the same thing with pro cyclists is it ? We do know that doping is quite widespread, we have a quite good idea of which teams are more involved in doping their riders, which don't help their riders but don't mind they cheat, and which play it fair (which doesn't mean you can't find an idiot cheating among them from times to times).
We're not exactly staring at something strange and unknown here. We know the teams, we know most of their men. We're just fighting blindness and excess of naivety.
Also, brun, would you feel the same if a dopehead spoiled you of the 130th position when he should have finished 160th and if he spoiled you from the victory when he should have finished 15th ? That's doubtful, the injustice felt is not the same. |
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| mb2612 |
Posted on 30-09-2008 10:42
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Yes, but how would you feel if you were clean and kept out of riding the tour by dopers, I can imagine that for some cyclists that would be the biggest injustice that they have in their entire lifetime. On someone who in the final mountain stage misses the time limit by seconds when a doper wins by minutes.
Yes at the top end the casualties are more high profile but for the cyclists them self, they don't want to be told that they are going to be beaten by dopers and that the dopers will not be punished.
 [url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
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| brun sweater |
Posted on 30-09-2008 12:54
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Of course the feeling of injustice is bigger, when we're talking bigshot riders but the law can't and shouldn't make distinctions because of the status of the offenders. |
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| jacknic |
Posted on 30-09-2008 13:04
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Domestique
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We do know that doping is quite widespread, we have a quite good idea of which teams are more involved in doping their riders, which don't help their riders but don't mind they cheat, and which play it fair (which doesn't mean you can't find an idiot cheating among them from times to times).
We're not exactly staring at something strange and unknown here. We know the teams, we know most of their men. We're just fighting blindness and excess of naivety.
That's just it; you don't know. You can speculate, but you just don't know. Unless you have information that I don't. A lot of people on here present half truthes and bogus science to prove that this and that rider is doping. The fact of the matter is that you don't know. Period.
And the media are not helping at all. I am sick and tired of the likes of l'equipe posting rumors with annonymous sources. This is sensationalism at its worst and it does absolutely no good. Give me some proven facts and then we discuss. I will not accept rumors and speculation as fact. It is unfair to the riders and teams in question. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 30-09-2008 13:08
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Personally jacknic, I think rumours and sensationalism is you saying L'Équipe does this and that when it's never L'Équipe printing this stuff
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 30-09-2008 13:14
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I don't know ? How could I know ?
"He told me he did" well, maybe he was joking, who knows ?
"somebody told me he did" probably somebody was jealous or something...
"I saw him" yeah, but am I really sure of what he took, who knows, there are loads of stuff that looks like pills or that you can inject yourself with that are perfectly legal.
"the test said he is positive" there's that one on a couple of billions probability that the test is wrong, so I can't know for sure either.
You can't KNOW for sure. It's more about common sense. Inductive logic instead of deductive logic...
Imagine a rider comes out of nowhere, he never achieved something significant, and suddenly climbs Alpe d'Huez in 25 minutes (let's exaggerate it), he has never tested positive, so surely he's innocent as we don't KNOW whether he doped or not ?
And it would be sick from us to suspect him publicly because we DON'T KNOW ?
Add to that : I'll never dare having an opinion about what's going on in cricket. I never played cricket, I don't know the rules, nobody around me ever played cricket. I absolutely don't KNOW anything about it.
It's all different for cycling, at least for me, and many others here. We know more or less what's going on and where it's going on. Never 100% sure, 99,999% at best.
edit : I may not KNOW, but if Monfort was caught with EPO and Growth Hormon I'd be very shocked, whereas if Ricco got caught with EPO I wouldn't be surprised at all (oh, it happened  ), well maybe I'd be surprised he got caught, but not that he took it, whereas you'd probably react the same in both cases.
At best it's naivety because of ethical reasons, at worst it's disgusting hypocrisy...
Edited by Aquarius on 30-09-2008 13:19
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| brun sweater |
Posted on 30-09-2008 15:02
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Neo-Pro
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But since Monfort is now switching to Colombia, you wouldn't be shocked afterall?  |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 30-09-2008 15:04
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Yes, I still would. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 30-09-2008 15:14
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Tour de France Champion
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You may take this as invalid, but to me it's quite valid: I've never been surprised in my life by the confirmation of a certain rider being doped. Considering the large numbers of riders I consider clean, I take that as validation that I'm doing something right with my thought process 
You may not think so, but feel free to disagree, anyone.
Of course, if all you're going to say is some stupid shit like "You think everyone is doped", then I'll just ignore you. Kind of like I learned to do with the oh-so-many people who have called me idiot, cynical and worse for years for saying this or that rider is doped, and who of course always deny ever saying that when that rider fails a dope test.
Aaaah, the memories of spanish people berating me for talking about Heras....and of random Astana fans on, for instance, this site, after I mentioned Vinokourov....
They all go silent when I end up being right about rider A, for some reason....but of course new ones always follow, saying that I'm an idiot for saying rider B is doped....then the cycle repeats for rider D, then rider E, then F.....it's actually quite predictable
Anyway, I'm rambling here. My main point is in the first paragraph. Feel free to ignore the rest. Although if you got to this part of the post it might be a little too late, eh?
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| mb2612 |
Posted on 30-09-2008 15:49
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Team Leader
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has there never been a rider you were wrorg about?
but your position is a pretty easy one th maintain because believing a rider is doped is easy to justify and be proven right whereas believing a rider is clean is a much harder position to argue.
[url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 30-09-2008 15:59
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No positive tests, no suspicious performances, involved in no doping scandals or accused by no former team mate / team member / doctor, no illogical evolution through the career.
That's enough to believe a rider probably didn't cheat (not significantly at least). |
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| mb2612 |
Posted on 30-09-2008 16:07
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So basically riders who do nothing special, keep ther heads down and get dropped consistently? (although slightly later as they get older)
[url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
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