|
After the Giro. Was it clean?
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 02-06-2008 21:24
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
jacknic wrote:
And why is Astana excluded when Cofidis is not? Both teams embarased the Tour twice but only one is french? Looks like double standards to me. And how can we take ASO serious when they aren't consistent?
miles away in terms of attitude. also, 1 rider in three years is very different to 30-something riders in three years. |
| |
|
|
| brun sweater |
Posted on 02-06-2008 21:28
|
Neo-Pro
Posts: 273
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
Cycling is extreme, and calls for extreme measures. Stuff like EPO is extremely good for endurance performance, but basicly, any sport that aquires more than 30 secs of performance, can benefit from EPO abuse. The Balco thingie in the states showed that scientist were designing steroids not even known (at the time) by the anti dope authorities! So one can only wonder what is going on now in dark corridors around the training communities? EPO and such stuff is now every mans drug. I mean you can buy it over the internet for christ sake!
This is big businiss and I bet most people wold dope up, if they were within reach of their lifelong dream. What they had been working for their entire life. It's not good, but it's not entirely bad either. It's just human. Hell, I bet it's even fun to dope up. Staying with the frontgroup in some obscure category 6 race and making the next guy suffer.
As long as we celebrate the winners and taunt the loosers, cheaters will be around. |
| |
|
|
| kadel |
Posted on 02-06-2008 21:34
|
Domestique
Posts: 480
Joined: 09-08-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
I ask you, do you think the doped winners really feel like real winners?
|
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 02-06-2008 21:39
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
kadel wrote:
I ask you, do you think the doped winners really feel like real winners?
yes. as shown repeatedly, they feel it is their right to dope and never feel like they are doing something illegal. on the contrary, they think the ones fighting doping are the ones who are "in the wrong".
They believe it is their god given right to dope.
This sounds amazing I know, but you have to remember they've grown up in that culture.
That, plus EPO makes people much more aggressive. When you see a guy attack and blow up no one but himself, that's usually the effect of the EPO: you want to attack, to drive everyone off your wheel. |
| |
|
|
| jacknic |
Posted on 02-06-2008 21:43
|
Domestique
Posts: 613
Joined: 19-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
Yeah well. The mentality of that argument just plainly sucks. It's like cheating in monopoly for Christs sake. It must take away from the joy of winning. It simply has to. Call me a naive romantic, but I cannot believe that all riders really enjoys their victories when they know they did it on dope.
Also, what about the fans coming up to you and praising you and maybe they are even inspired to take up cycling by you. How the hell do you look those people in the eye and not want to kill yourself?
Are all pro cyclers, directeur sportifs, team doctors etc. really so morally bancrupt? I refuse to believe that. |
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 02-06-2008 21:46
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
jacknic wrote:
Yeah well. The mentality of that argument just plainly sucks. It's like cheating in monopoly for Christs sake. It must take away from the joy of winning. It simply has to. Call me a naive romantic, but I cannot believe that all riders really enjoys their victories when they know they did it on dope.
Also, what about the fans coming up to you and praising you and maybe they are even inspired to take up cycling by you. How the hell do you look those people in the eye and not want to kill yourself?
Are all pro cyclers, directeur sportifs, team doctors etc. really so morally bancrupt? I refuse to believe that.
it's not about being morally bankrupt. read any of the books written by dopers confessing. read the statements when they're caught or when they confess.
I didn't pull that post out of my ass, it's what they all say, and since you haven't realised, let me assure you: every single one of them says the same |
| |
|
|
| diouf |
Posted on 02-06-2008 21:46
|
Under 23
Posts: 62
Joined: 03-02-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
jacknic wrote:
Yeah well. The mentality of that argument just plainly sucks. It's like cheating in monopoly for Christs sake. It must take away from the joy of winning. It simply has to. Call me a naive romantic, but I cannot believe that all riders really enjoys their victories when they know they did it on dope.
Also, what about the fans coming up to you and praising you and maybe they are even inspired to take up cycling by you. How the hell do you look those people in the eye and not want to kill yourself?
Are all pro cyclers, directeur sportifs, team doctors etc. really so morally bancrupt? I refuse to believe that.
Like many of the topcyclers have said. Everybody else was doing it too. i really think that's the reason. |
| |
|
|
| jacknic |
Posted on 02-06-2008 21:48
|
Domestique
Posts: 613
Joined: 19-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
That, plus EPO makes people much more aggressive. When you see a guy attack and blow up no one but himself, that's usually the effect of the EPO: you want to attack, to drive everyone off your wheel.
And no. That is just not true. EPO produces more red bloodcells which are used to transport oxigen around your system. A sideeffect is thicker blood, that can lead to blood clots.
Aggression comes from steroids. |
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 02-06-2008 21:48
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
an italian rider who wanted to stay anonymous once said he heard a couple of Caisse riders in 2007 say "stupid idiots. why don't they just dope and win something for a change?" and laugh about it afterwards.
says it all, doesn't it? |
| |
|
|
| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 02:47
|
Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
|
|
| IP: None |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 02-06-2008 21:53
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
jacknic wrote:
That, plus EPO makes people much more aggressive. When you see a guy attack and blow up no one but himself, that's usually the effect of the EPO: you want to attack, to drive everyone off your wheel.
And no. That is just not true. EPO produces more red bloodcells which are used to transport oxigen around your system. A sideeffect is thicker blood, that can lead to blood clots.
Aggression comes from steroids.
it's well documented that EPO makes you more aggressive. I recall the words of that german guy who wanted to test himself with EPO. he said that on EPO he felt so agressive as if the road up the Alpe d'Huez was flat. |
| |
|
|
| jacknic |
Posted on 02-06-2008 21:54
|
Domestique
Posts: 613
Joined: 19-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
So what we are trying to do now is to change that mentality? I guess we just have to wait a couple of generations before cheating is considered bad karma... |
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 02-06-2008 21:55
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
jacknic wrote:
So what we are trying to do now is to change that mentality? I guess we just have to wait a couple of generations before cheating is considered bad karma...
it's already changing. but not in all countries. but overall it's changing. If you see the guys who are caught doping, there's a predominance of the older riders. |
| |
|
|
| KurtinSC |
Posted on 02-06-2008 21:55
|
Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 997
Joined: 20-09-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
kadel wrote:
I ask you, do you think the doped winners really feel like real winners?
Absolutely. Because they know everyone else is doping too... so to them it's not "cheating"... it's playing on the same field as everyone else.
And to be honest... I understand. When I was swimming competitively at a fairly high level in my youth, it was very noticeable how many of the top swimmers happened to have asthma. It definitely made me think about getting an asthma diagnosis so I could open up my airways before a race. |
| |
|
|
| brun sweater |
Posted on 02-06-2008 22:01
|
Neo-Pro
Posts: 273
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
Even if you dope, you work very very very very hard to achieve results. Of course they enjoy their victories. Even dopers makes huges sacrifies to be reach elite level. |
| |
|
|
| jacknic |
Posted on 02-06-2008 22:03
|
Domestique
Posts: 613
Joined: 19-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
it's already changing. but not in all countries. but overall it's changing. If you see the guys who are caught doping, there's a predominance of the older riders.
Is it enough to fase out the older riders. Johan Bryunell, Bjarne Riis, Brian Holm and so on are still in the game. Are they the right people to entrust with the future of cycling? All are retired riders from the EPO era. |
| |
|
|
| chuckie |
Posted on 02-06-2008 22:07
|
Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 828
Joined: 22-09-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
I've been told that doping has no effect on amateurs and only really affects those at the peak of their performance. Is there any evidence in this?
|
| |
|
|
| Crommy |
Posted on 02-06-2008 22:12
|
World Champion
Posts: 10018
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
chuckie wrote:
I've been told that doping has no effect on amateurs and only really affects those at the peak of their performance. Is there any evidence in this?
No
|
| |
|
|
| Smoothie |
Posted on 02-06-2008 22:13
|
Team Leader
Posts: 6622
Joined: 04-02-2007
PCM$: 300.00
|
Drugs have an effect on the human body. full stop  |
| |
|
|
| issoisso |
Posted on 02-06-2008 22:15
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 22918
Joined: 08-02-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
jacknic wrote:
it's already changing. but not in all countries. but overall it's changing. If you see the guys who are caught doping, there's a predominance of the older riders.
Is it enough to fase out the older riders. Johan Bryunell, Bjarne Riis, Brian Holm and so on are still in the game. Are they the right people to entrust with the future of cycling? All are retired riders from the EPO era.
that's the biggest problem. guys like Legeay, Riis, Bruyneel, Breuking, Lefévère, etc. have to go.
the worst part are the fake anti-doping programmes that actually have a lot of people fooled (Astana, CSC, Rabobank...) |
| |
|
|
| brun sweater |
Posted on 02-06-2008 22:18
|
Neo-Pro
Posts: 273
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
chuckie wrote:
I've been told that doping has no effect on amateurs and only really affects those at the peak of their performance. Is there any evidence in this?
Amateurs can still benefit more from optimizing their training, diets and such, than dope, but raising your hematocrit will benefit even the laziest amateur. However, it's not worth it, because training better is much cheaper than buying dope. Also, most dope gives you the possibility to train harder, making your body recover faster. |
| |
|
