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Lance Armstrong fair price to pay
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 01:26
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| wildcat000 |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:27
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Correct, CSC spends the most, but Slipstream actually spends more than them, but there PCT. |
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| alex153 |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:28
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wildcat000 wrote:
Correct, CSC spends the most, but Slipstream actually spends more than them, but there PCT.
Yeah, I know, thats why I said pro tour |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:29
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wildcat000 wrote:
That's what it's listed in the WADA archives and in numerous sources, except Walsh's book of course. But he has no regard for reliable sources, so I'm not suprised. That is why I said no positive tests, to my knowledge, he's had two "suspicious" tests, but they are most radiation drugs to prevent damage to the liver and kidneys, so it's cancer related and in no way performance enhancing.
Granted. We got horribly sidetracked here. My original point: you can't justify the suspicion on him with the fact he's american. There's the same suspicion on a dozen riders who are not american
matt493 wrote:
All the teams have been repeatedly causght with dopers.
gross exaggeration
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| wildcat000 |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:29
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I know, I was just rebuffing your comment. I've seen the figures, there in various media guides. |
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| wildcat000 |
Posted on 06-04-2008 22:30
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issoisso wrote:
wildcat000 wrote:
That's what it's listed in the WADA archives and in numerous sources, except Walsh's book of course. But he has no regard for reliable sources, so I'm not suprised. That is why I said no positive tests, to my knowledge, he's had two "suspicious" tests, but they are most radiation drugs to prevent damage to the liver and kidneys, so it's cancer related and in no way performance enhancing.
Granted. We got horribly sidetracked here. My original point: you can't justify the suspicion on him with the fact he's american. There's the same suspicion on a dozen riders who are not american
matt493 wrote:
All the teams have been repeatedly causght with dopers.
gross exaggeration
I agree. My point was that was some of the reason why, particularly Walsh and the other guy that I can't spell his name so I won't try to . Most of the people that attacked him were either misinformed, or tired of his domination. |
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| t-baum |
Posted on 06-04-2008 23:00
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You guys are worse then a bunch of 13 year old girls.
Macquet wrote:
"We all know that wasn't the real footage of the Worlds anyway. That was just the staged footage to perpetuate the coverup that it was actually Vinokourov that won the race." |
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| MarcoPRT |
Posted on 06-04-2008 23:03
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wildcat000 wrote:
[quote]
I agree. My point was that was some of the reason why, particularly Walsh and the other guy that I can't spell his name so I won't try to . Most of the people that attacked him were either misinformed, or tired of his domination.
Obviously. Lance is "Da King".
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| wildcat000 |
Posted on 06-04-2008 23:23
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No, I was just proving a point. And how can you not agree with the Lance domination comment, how many more Tours do you want him to win to be considered dominant ? |
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| matt493 |
Posted on 07-04-2008 00:13
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And he might have been able to win more if he didn't retire.
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| t-baum |
Posted on 07-04-2008 00:21
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I'd say he could've won the next one, but Contador and Rasmu were amazing this year.
Macquet wrote:
"We all know that wasn't the real footage of the Worlds anyway. That was just the staged footage to perpetuate the coverup that it was actually Vinokourov that won the race."
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| wildcat000 |
Posted on 07-04-2008 00:32
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Yeah, but he was reaching the peak, so it was good to go out on a high note. I don't see how he could've competed this year, against young climbers like Conti and Rasmu. |
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| KurtinSC |
Posted on 07-04-2008 02:08
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I still believe they're all doping.... or at least the top 70% of riders.
While people can be upset about the sport not being "clean"... I do believe it's even footing. I don't think anyone is getting a huge advantage because I believe everyone is doing it.
Right now the last winner of a grand tour I believe was actually clean would be Greg Lemond... and if something came out about him tomorrow I wouldn't be too shocked.
Di Luca, Basso, Salvodelli, Cunego, Simoni, Garzelli, Gotti, Pantani, Tonkov, Rominger, Berzin, Indurain, Chioccoli, Bugno, Contador, Pereiro, Armstrong, Ullrich, Riis, Delgado, Roche, Hinnault, Menchov, Vinokurov, Heras, Gonzalez, Casero, Olano, Zuule, Jalebert, Mauri, Giovannetti.... all of them were probably dopers.
I may be odd, but I'm just not that bothered by it anymore. I'm interested in the sport and competition... but I'm just not that concerned about the health of the riders or the drug use.
Similarly I like music performed by many drug users, I like books written by drug users and I like movies in which actors who use drugs act. I'm not actually IN the sport... so I'm watching it for entertainment. And I've been entertained by cycling where a majority of riders dope. For me it's just not an issue. |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 07-04-2008 08:12
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wildcat000 wrote:
Yeah, but he was reaching the peak, so it was good to go out on a high note. I don't see how he could've competed this year, against young climbers like Conti and Rasmu. Had he been at his 1999-2005 level in 2006 and 2007 he would have won those two also, unless he'd have had problems like falls, flats in decisive moments, etc.
Wattages say it. |
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 07-04-2008 09:06
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Wohoo, yet another "did Lance dope or not"-discussion I think I'll start denying that Riis and Rasmussen doped. They never tested positive! |
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| alex153 |
Posted on 07-04-2008 09:26
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CrueTrue wrote:
Wohoo, yet another "did Lance dope or not"-discussion I think I'll start denying that Riis and Rasmussen doped. They never tested positive!
Axelsson never doped either |
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| brun sweater |
Posted on 07-04-2008 11:23
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Last (maybe) clean (clean as in none hematocrit boosting) TdF winner in my world is Greg Lemond. But none the less, I kind of see the riders winning le Tour after Lemond as great riders! Cycling is a great sport. I enjoy my three times a week on the roads around Copenhagen very much. Competitetive cycling however (and all competetive sports) is ruthless. It decreases all the values I try and hold high in my everyday life as a human. Those values are often the complete opposites of what I'm trying to give my own son. It's all about winning almost no matter how you do it! The beauty of the physical hardship in it self, is at most second rated. To blame the athletes for this doesn't make sence however. Lance Armstrong didn't invent this world. All he did was win a cycling race with the means he thought to be rightfull (whatever that've might been). When rating succes the results are what counts, like it or not. Cheating is part of everyday life, and very often, the moral limits we as human beings define ourselves up against, are a direct consequence of what benefits us the most. If you're hungry, then stealing food would definately be morally acceptable for you. If you can trick a ref in a football match to give you a penalty, and that penalty will give you the win, then it's acceptable for you. If you're riding le Tour to win, and you can cheat without being detected, then it's acceptable. It's simply the nature of war and other competitions.
In this case, whether LA doped himself or not, we will never know for sure. For some this however (as always becomes very evident in discussions like this) is of gravest importance. Either LA is a hero or a villain and the parameter for deciding this, is whether he cheatet or not. Personally I try to focus on the way he rode his bike, elevated hematocrit or not, and that was simply outstanding.
To get back on topic before I completely loose track. Was it ok (if) he cheatet? Of course not! Is it ok he've given money to charity? Of course. |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 07-04-2008 12:40
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"Personally I try to focus on the way he rode his bike, elevated hematocrit or not, and that was simply outstanding." Question is would have it been any outstanding had he not used dope ? Your argument falls short if it would have been very common without dope. |
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| brun sweater |
Posted on 07-04-2008 14:15
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True....but it's not really an argument. He rode in the front of the pack, he was very exposed as was his bike handling. That's the only thing I need to find his style beautiful. |
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| tate |
Posted on 07-04-2008 14:53
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I would say that riders are doped but I would also say i'll believe all riders to be clean unless they are proven to be doped. I would like to believe that all riders that cheat will be found out. Lance was clean in terms of the fact he didnt fail a test. just like a lot of the current riders that are riding now. But they will be found out in time. Lance won 7 tdf and i am glad to say i was able to watch him live in his last victory. I am also glad that i seen some great riders at there best this in 07. I am disapointed that i cant see all of them this year but thats for a different time. |
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