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CAS Hearings Today
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 20-03-2008 00:07
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CrueTrue wrote:
Depends on the definition of 'clean'. All riders are being filled with all sorts of (legal) pills. The ones who are really good are being filled with all sorts of syringes 
Syringes + extra drugs to cover up syringes
and yes i do think every rider does take legal drugs to aid recovery - i do myself during a stage race, aspirin to help thin the blood and to get a better nights sleep. Even if it just helps mentally, it helps. But i pity you that you have lost all trust in all good riders, i still hang onto the remnants of mine (hence hoping Armstrong is clean).
[url=cleavercycling.co.uk]  [/url] |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 20-03-2008 07:13
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Levi4life wrote:
Proved and confirmed by the arbitration panel.
Back that up with a source.
Levi4life wrote:
And Landis's team picked the arbitrator off a list compiled by USADA. That is simple fact don't be a dick just because you don't know.
A list comprised of every single living lawyer in the world who had ever taken part in a doping-related trial either on the defendant or the accuser's side.
"don't be a dick just because you don't know"
Levi4life wrote:
EDIT: WTF are you ranting on about Guido.
yes, personal attack is always the way to go, well done 
Levi4life wrote:
And as per my choice why would you put it as a choice if you didn't want it selected.
Yes, because he clearly said he didn't want it selected. Clearly he's out to get you
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 20-03-2008 07:51
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Whether Landis can legally be condamned (and thus be considered doped form a legal point of view), I don't know, as there have been mistakes from the lab.
Whether Landis took extra-testosterone during the TDF 2006 : yes, he did, and not only before stage #17.
That day he screw his E/T ratio for some reason, which caused the IRMS detection method to be used (and be positive). When his former samples (with a correct E/T ratio) were tested again with the IRMS method they were also positive.
So yes, Landis doped in substance, if not in form. |
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| Guido Mukk |
Posted on 20-03-2008 09:36
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All I am saying Levi4life...Is that Landis action is weak. Take your penalty doper and shut up. |
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 20-03-2008 12:08
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For once, this poll is actually useful. There's not really any doubt, it seems |
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| Deadpool |
Posted on 20-03-2008 12:47
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There is some Crue, although Levi is biased and I voted not sure not because I didn't think he doped, but because of the mistakes the lab made. |
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| Levi4life |
Posted on 20-03-2008 23:43
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issoisso wrote:
Levi4life wrote:
Proved and confirmed by the arbitration panel.
Back that up with a source.
Levi4life wrote:
And Landis's team picked the arbitrator off a list compiled by USADA. That is simple fact don't be a dick just because you don't know.
A list comprised of every single living lawyer in the world who had ever taken part in a doping-related trial either on the defendant or the accuser's side.
"don't be a dick just because you don't know"
Levi4life wrote:
EDIT: WTF are you ranting on about Guido.
yes, personal attack is always the way to go, well done
Levi4life wrote:
And as per my choice why would you put it as a choice if you didn't want it selected.
Yes, because he clearly said he didn't want it selected. Clearly he's out to get you
https://www.velonews.com/media/LandisD...cision.pdf
There is your fucking source Issoisso. My personal favorites are "Failed Quality Control," " Poor Chromatography," "Deletion of Data," in relation to vital insturments "Out of Measurement of Linearity." Also there are "Error in Laboratory Documents" and sections 3.3 and 3.4 of Wada's Code of Ethics tying the hands of Anti Doping experts from defending Landis.
Now Issoisso it is your fucking turn. Convince me or shut the hell up. Give me something that means something. Don't just tell me I'm wrong and expect me to be content.
My statement stands. Don't be a dick until you can back it up.
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| Deadpool |
Posted on 21-03-2008 02:06
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Levi - The explitives are not neccesary, and yes, there were a lot of mistakes made by the lab, but it does seem as though Landis doped  |
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| Levi4life |
Posted on 21-03-2008 04:41
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But you can't back that up. I am pissed that so many people, Issoisso foremost among them, are telling me Landis doped when WADA rules state that if ISL is violated the case is to be thrown out. The Aribtration panel acknowleged that but somehow upheld the result on the basis of the CIR test, in which there are just as many errors and mistakes on the lab's part as the T/E test. The results of the CIR couldn't even meet the posotivity criteria. In a positive test there are 4 metabolties that have to have isotope ratio above 3.8(just to prove I am not making this shit up this is from USADA documents 0351-0352) Landis' numbers? 2.02, 3.51, 2.65, and 6.39. WADA criteria state that all 4 must be above 3.8 for a posotive and all 4 have to be below for a negative. What were Landis's numbers? they represent a mistake made by the lab, not a posotive nor a negative test. ISL was violated with this test as well. Prove me wrong.
The French Lab wouldn't allow anyone in to observe the test to tell them they were -oing it wrong and it was proven over the course of the trial that the girl who did all the tests (another violation of WADA code) hadn't been formally trained. There are no records of the initial results because the french lab erased them (another violation), the machines were fucked up (I will use explicatives all I fucking want) as proven by Landis, the samples all showed up with unacceptable levels of contamination. Had Landis' sample been tested elsewhere this case would never have happened and Landis life wouldn't be fucked.
Give me some data not scewed by shoddy testing methods. Give me something other than opinion and media brain-washing, lets see some science. Fuck.:x
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| alex153 |
Posted on 21-03-2008 07:10
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Levi4life wrote:
But you can't back that up. I am pissed that so many people, Issoisso foremost among them, are telling me Landis doped when WADA rules state that if ISL is violated the case is to be thrown out. The Aribtration panel acknowleged that but somehow upheld the result on the basis of the CIR test, in which there are just as many errors and mistakes on the lab's part as the T/E test. The results of the CIR couldn't even meet the posotivity criteria. In a positive test there are 4 metabolties that have to have isotope ratio above 3.8(just to prove I am not making this shit up this is from USADA documents 0351-0352) Landis' numbers? 2.02, 3.51, 2.65, and 6.39. WADA criteria state that all 4 must be above 3.8 for a posotive and all 4 have to be below for a negative. What were Landis's numbers? they represent a mistake made by the lab, not a posotive nor a negative test. ISL was violated with this test as well. Prove me wrong.
The French Lab wouldn't allow anyone in to observe the test to tell them they were -oing it wrong and it was proven over the course of the trial that the girl who did all the tests (another violation of WADA code) hadn't been formally trained. There are no records of the initial results because the french lab erased them (another violation), the machines were fucked up (I will use explicatives all I fucking want) as proven by Landis, the samples all showed up with unacceptable levels of contamination. Had Landis' sample been tested elsewhere this case would never have happened and Landis life wouldn't be fucked.
Give me some data not scewed by shoddy testing methods. Give me something other than opinion and media brain-washing, lets see some science. Fuck.:x
How about calming down and discuss it like a normal person without attacking others on the forum.
Every thread I read you seem to attack or get upset on someone...
Concerning Landis, I believe he is doped, not because the test, but the way he looked during the stage. I guessed it as soon as he attacked, but I don't have any proof, no.
Edited by alex153 on 21-03-2008 07:11
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| issoisso |
Posted on 21-03-2008 08:01
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Levi4life wrote:
There is your fucking source Issoisso. My personal favorites are "Failed Quality Control," " Poor Chromatography," "Deletion of Data," in relation to vital insturments "Out of Measurement of Linearity." Also there are "Error in Laboratory Documents" and sections 3.3 and 3.4 of Wada's Code of Ethics tying the hands of Anti Doping experts from defending Landis.
Now Issoisso it is your fucking turn. Convince me or shut the hell up. Give me something that means something. Don't just tell me I'm wrong and expect me to be content.
My statement stands. Don't be a dick until you can back it up.
All those sections say the lab mishandled the test, which pretty much everyone here has conceded. Nowhere does it say the results of the test are unsuitable to be used.
Levi4life wrote:
so many people, Issoisso foremost among them, are telling me Landis doped
The problem is that you are so blinded with hate that you can't even see straight. When did I say Landis doped? Quite the contrary. I was the only person on this thread who actually made an argument for both sides of the issue, as far as I can see.
Levi4life wrote:
when WADA rules state that if ISL is violated the case is to be thrown out. The Aribtration panel acknowleged that but somehow upheld the result on the basis of the CIR test, in which there are just as many errors and mistakes on the lab's part as the T/E test. The results of the CIR couldn't even meet the posotivity criteria. In a positive test there are 4 metabolties that have to have isotope ratio above 3.8(just to prove I am not making this shit up this is from USADA documents 0351-0352) Landis' numbers? 2.02, 3.51, 2.65, and 6.39. WADA criteria state that all 4 must be above 3.8 for a posotive and all 4 have to be below for a negative. What were Landis's numbers? they represent a mistake made by the lab, not a posotive nor a negative test. ISL was violated with this test as well. Prove me wrong.
The French Lab wouldn't allow anyone in to observe the test to tell them they were -oing it wrong and it was proven over the course of the trial that the girl who did all the tests (another violation of WADA code) hadn't been formally trained. There are no records of the initial results because the french lab erased them (another violation), the machines were fucked up (I will use explicatives all I fucking want) as proven by Landis, the samples all showed up with unacceptable levels of contamination. Had Landis' sample been tested elsewhere this case would never have happened and Landis life wouldn't be fucked.
Give me some data not scewed by shoddy testing methods. Give me something other than opinion and media brain-washing, lets see some science. Fuck.:x
But you just had to attack people instead of discussing this. that won't in any way have a positive effect on the way people view Landis.
Don't confuse me pointing out the parts where you deliberately exaggerated the truth with me saying Landis doped.
And I've answered every single point about your posts, unlike you who have conveniently dodged every part of the discussion that you had no arguments against, just pretending that it isn't there.
Edited by issoisso on 21-03-2008 08:05
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 21-03-2008 08:40
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How about Landis' side protesting when his former samples were tested again with the IRMS method, and all showed testosterone inside ? 
Are we discussing whether Landis should be condamned based on legal rules or are we discussing whether he took extra testosterone ?
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| Levi4life |
Posted on 21-03-2008 19:25
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issoisso wrote:
Levi4life wrote:
There is your fucking source Issoisso. My personal favorites are "Failed Quality Control," " Poor Chromatography," "Deletion of Data," in relation to vital insturments "Out of Measurement of Linearity." Also there are "Error in Laboratory Documents" and sections 3.3 and 3.4 of Wada's Code of Ethics tying the hands of Anti Doping experts from defending Landis.
Now Issoisso it is your fucking turn. Convince me or shut the hell up. Give me something that means something. Don't just tell me I'm wrong and expect me to be content.
My statement stands. Don't be a dick until you can back it up.
All those sections say the lab mishandled the test, which pretty much everyone here has conceded. Nowhere does it say the results of the test are unsuitable to be used.
Levi4life wrote:
so many people, Issoisso foremost among them, are telling me Landis doped
The problem is that you are so blinded with hate that you can't even see straight. When did I say Landis doped? Quite the contrary. I was the only person on this thread who actually made an argument for both sides of the issue, as far as I can see.
Levi4life wrote:
when WADA rules state that if ISL is violated the case is to be thrown out. The Aribtration panel acknowleged that but somehow upheld the result on the basis of the CIR test, in which there are just as many errors and mistakes on the lab's part as the T/E test. The results of the CIR couldn't even meet the posotivity criteria. In a positive test there are 4 metabolties that have to have isotope ratio above 3.8(just to prove I am not making this shit up this is from USADA documents 0351-0352) Landis' numbers? 2.02, 3.51, 2.65, and 6.39. WADA criteria state that all 4 must be above 3.8 for a posotive and all 4 have to be below for a negative. What were Landis's numbers? they represent a mistake made by the lab, not a posotive nor a negative test. ISL was violated with this test as well. Prove me wrong.
The French Lab wouldn't allow anyone in to observe the test to tell them they were -oing it wrong and it was proven over the course of the trial that the girl who did all the tests (another violation of WADA code) hadn't been formally trained. There are no records of the initial results because the french lab erased them (another violation), the machines were fucked up (I will use explicatives all I fucking want) as proven by Landis, the samples all showed up with unacceptable levels of contamination. Had Landis' sample been tested elsewhere this case would never have happened and Landis life wouldn't be fucked.
Give me some data not scewed by shoddy testing methods. Give me something other than opinion and media brain-washing, lets see some science. Fuck.:x
But you just had to attack people instead of discussing this. that won't in any way have a positive effect on the way people view Landis.
Don't confuse me pointing out the parts where you deliberately exaggerated the truth with me saying Landis doped.
And I've answered every single point about your posts, unlike you who have conveniently dodged every part of the discussion that you had no arguments against, just pretending that it isn't there.
Alright Issoisso I apoligize to you. Call me out on some of the things i have "dodged" so I can answer to them. I am no expert but i can give it a try. Hopefully you can understand my EXTREME frustration when we have so many intelligent people on these forums who seemingly ignore the science.
Aquarius wrote:
How about Landis' side protesting when his former samples were tested again with the IRMS method, and all showed testosterone inside ?
Are we discussing whether Landis should be condamned based on legal rules or are we discussing whether he took extra testosterone ?
As for IRMS, were those tests done behind closed doors in the same french lab? Thought so. Think about it. If the LNDD had to do a test on samples, contaminated samples mind you, after screwing up on the T/E and CIR test they better find something.
From a scientific perception the level of contamination in the samples was 7.7% and not below the allowable 5 % then all tests done on the samples are invalidated. Did the LNDD intentionally contaminate the samples? Would you cover your own ass? That would be a better question to ask them. Do I trust the LNDD?
And still there is no valid science to back up the case aginst Landis. If there is bring it to my attention and I will rip it a new asshole.
Edited by Levi4life on 21-03-2008 19:29
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| issoisso |
Posted on 21-03-2008 19:36
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To be quite honest, and no disrespect to you, but right now I couldn't care less. I'm not in the mindset for it. But the possibility of a positive test for an innocent man is something that shocks me.
Doesn't anger me. just shocks me. What angers me is when the guy from the Lausanne lab says 80% of the TDF peloton are doped, he knows exactly who they are but they can't consider them positive because that would mean standards for a positive test so low that once in a while an innocent guy would get caught.
In that case: screw the innoncent guy. clean up the sport.
And if right now even that doesn't anger me, then it really shows how much I can't be bothered with the subject right now.
sorry.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Levi4life |
Posted on 21-03-2008 19:41
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Truce?
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| issoisso |
Posted on 21-03-2008 19:43
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sure.
now about your shameless overhyping of americans.......
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Levi4life |
Posted on 21-03-2008 19:44
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Scotty is the best rider in the world. That is pure fact.
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| issoisso |
Posted on 21-03-2008 19:51
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Levi4life wrote:
Scotty is the best rider in the world. That is pure fact.
As aquarious would say: I'll get you to state your true thoughts one day
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| brun sweater |
Posted on 21-03-2008 20:56
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...oh well, now the case is at CAS. If they're not impartial, I guess no one is?
The main argument for Landis actually being innocent, is that the lab tampered the results? How else would they be able to detect synthetic testosterone in his system? And actually I wouldn't be really shocked if that one day became evident. But I must say, that I don't buy that! I don't buy the conspiracy theory. I have no scientific knowledge and can't see through the various arguments in the case, but I simply doesn't believe USADA would find him guilty, if there wasn't legitimate evidence to suggest he actually was guilty! Not even ASO would gain anything from Floyd being guilty. I can't think of anybody who have gained anything from Floyd getting caught using testosterone? Of course there's the ongoing Frencies against Americans theories, but that is just too stupid to even comment upon.
For me Landis is guilty. If CAS decides otherwise, I'd be happy to see him in the peloton again. |
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| Levi4life |
Posted on 21-03-2008 21:12
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The lab screwed up the tests, not intentionally screwing with results. Weather or not they did it on purpose is up to debate. To his credit Landis thinks the mistakes were unintentional. Pretty gracious for a guy who's life they ruined.
For USADA the Landis case was do or die. They HAD to win. They had to win so much that they skipped taking the test results to UCLA Anti-Doping Lab so that they could analyze it (as they always have done) and get a professional opinion from the experts there. Their case was so weak (and I watched the arbitration live) that they brought in circumstantial evidence such as the LeMond testimony. LeMonds claims make no sense to me. Why would an innocent man call him of all people to confess? I believe Landis' statement saying he was calling to ask LeMond to not comment on the case especially since Landis had no official results at that time and LeMond certainly has no place commenting on a case considering his bitter past and the circumstances he left the sport under. Then there is Joe Papp. Who the hell is Joe Papp? A cheater. Is he relevent to the case? No. Why was he there? Good question. I am curious as to how long his suspension was reduced to after his testimony.
USADA's case was just simply too shabby and was ridden with holes. Their form of justice is so averse to what the American Judicial system is that they are being investigated by Congress for violations of the constitution and mishandling American taxpayer's money.
Edited by Levi4life on 21-03-2008 21:13
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